Venture 222 knockdown?

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LoHo
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Venture 222 knockdown?

Post by LoHo » Tue Sep 26, 2017 3:09 pm

Friends, after finishing our sailing classes last weekend and seeing six boats knocked down or capsized (three were Hobie 16 or 18s), my sailing partner asked if our Venture 222 could go all the way over. I have researched it a bit, with one stating it will go over, but pop back up if the keel is pinned down, and another that she would round up before she went over. Anyone with real and specific information?

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LoHo
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Re: Venture 222 knockdown?

Post by LoHo » Tue Sep 26, 2017 3:50 pm

The manual says that it will self-right if the sails are released to avoid trapping water...anyone try tipping her over?

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Jonair222
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Re: Venture 222 knockdown?

Post by Jonair222 » Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:42 pm

all you can do is TRY :D

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NiceAft
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Re: Venture 222 knockdown?

Post by NiceAft » Wed Oct 18, 2017 12:44 am

When a boat gets knocked down, the sails are no longer acting like a wall to the winds force. Something had to give, and it was the boat :D With the main now being parallel to the sea/lake/river. etc., the weight of the keel will pull the boat back up. That is if the main has not filled with water. if it has, by releasing the main sheet, the main sail should dump its water load as the boat begins to right itself. This might not be instantaneous. I'm sure Rodger did not mention any time lapse in the manual.

As your sailing prowess improves, so will your reaction time. When you feel the boat heeling more than you are comfortable with, you will have a knee jerk reaction, and release the main sheet, and thus dumping the wind out of the main. In the beginning, you just might keep the main sheet in your hand until you are at ease with heeling beyond fifteen degrees. :) You may already be at that point, so forgive me if that is the case.

I have an :macm: , but the principle is the same. Your counter weight is a keel, mine is a ballast tank. I've had my :macm: heeling in excess of forty-five degrees. You're not moveing very fast, in fact barely moving at all, but the ride is thrilling :D

Ray

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Re: Venture 222 knockdown?

Post by Seapup » Wed Oct 18, 2017 9:51 am

and another that she would round up before she went over. Anyone with real and specific information?
A buddy I work with keeps his mac 22 in a slip 5 minutes from our work & we take it out regularly afterwork on non racenights. Especially in the early spring with strong winds after a winter of cabin fever. Our egos generally take over when together so we have taken it out and abused it in winds higher than sensible. Conditions I would not take my boat or spouse out in for fun. His 22 always develops tons of weather helm and rounds up once pushed hard past the limits, I would envision needing a breaking wave to turtle it. Due to how low it is you feel right at water level and it "feels" less intimidating to push hard than my :macx:

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BOAT
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Re: Venture 222 knockdown?

Post by BOAT » Wed Oct 18, 2017 11:03 am

The 222 will not go over unless the centerboard closes or falls off. This all leads to the question as to why boats go over in the first place.

First some basics:

Not including spinnakers, you do not heel much when sailing with the wind for the most part because the wind is behind the boat and not pushing it to the side (mostly) but without getting into all the esoteric ways there are to sail a boat let's assume that sailboats mostly heel on three points of sail:

Close Hauled
Close Reach
Beam Reach

And there are two parts to each points of sail: the degrees off the wind and the position of the sails. For the M boat let's assume that these are the basic three points of sail and their respective sail positions:

Close Hauled 40 degrees boom position center
Close Reach 65 degrees boom position gunnel
Beam Reach 90 degrees boom position overboard

Now, your 222 will have a different angle on pointing (closer to 25 degrees) but even with the variation in numbers the points will be the same. Here is a picture that might help:

Image

So, what causes EXCESSIVE heeling? To be simple, applying the wrong sail position to the current point of sail. If you do a beam reach with the sails close hauled - the boat will heel excessively, same for a close reach. Why do people sheet in too tight? Mostly to go faster. If your boat goes faster when you sheet in too tight that means your sails are shot. Here is why:

Your Close Hauled boom position is in reality a Close Reach SAIL position because the forward third of your sail is billowed out in a reach position:

Image

Same for your Close Reach boom position - your boom says "Close Reach" but your SAILS say: "Beam Reach!". And even worse, blown out sails turn your Beam Reach boom into an actual down wind set up. What really exacerbates this is that most MACS use a bolt rope footed main, so that traps the wind in the bottom of the sail and forces the wind to go UP THE MAST to the top of the sail! Thus increasing the wind force on the TOP of the sail (the top of the mast).

It's a bad way to fly.

I have come to the conclusion that this is mostly what is happening on a lot of the MACS that are complaining about excessive heel - because I have just not encountered it. I suspect the real reason is because 'boat' is a fairly new boat with new sails. The X boats are some of the oldest in the fleet and if your still sailing your original or even your second set of sails you are probably blown out and that is why your X boat is throwing you to the side - it's not the boats fault - it's your messed up sails. Because of this I also think the X and M should use footless mains.

I suspect an old 222 would need a good tune up also to prevent this, but for the most pert it would not be as much of an issue on the 222 because of it's low freeboard and center of gravity.

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LoHo
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Re: Venture 222 knockdown?

Post by LoHo » Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:34 pm

I just finished sailing lessons in Monterey Bay in 30, 34, and 38 footers, much bigger than the C-15 I've been sailing, or the Venture 222 I am working on. The larger boats could heel over quite a bit, but the instructor said they couldn't go over. The last Sunday we sailed, we saw six boats knock down or capsize, mostly Hobies. The C-15 goes over easily; I wondered how the 222 would work. Thanks for the info, all!

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Re: Venture 222 knockdown?

Post by LeePierce » Thu Oct 19, 2017 11:10 am

Small un-ballasted boats like hobie cats, C-15 and sun-fish are designed to go over, their masts float to prevent them from going turtle.
When sailing a cat, we like to balance riding on 1 pontoon and if you go too far, over you go. They have righting systems to help put them back on their feet.
When sailing a small un-ballasted boat like a C-15 or in my case a sun-fish, you balance the sail pressure with your weight, so if you get that off, over you go, they are designed for it too.
It is all part of the fun!
I often dumped cat or my sun-fish over just so I could take a rest and float in the water without the boat running off from me (I did not want to drop the sails.)
Point being it is 100% normal for some boats to be over and seem like they are in trouble when they are perfectly find.
This should not be compared in any way to your cabin boat with ballast.
Now if cabin boats are going over, not sure I have seen that much.

Lee

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NiceAft
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Re: Venture 222 knockdown?

Post by NiceAft » Thu Oct 19, 2017 11:39 am

LeePierce wrote:Small un-ballasted boats like hobie cats, C-15 and sun-fish are designed to go over, their masts float to prevent them from going turtle.
When sailing a cat, we like to balance riding on 1 pontoon and if you go too far, over you go. They have righting systems to help put them back on their feet.
When sailing a small un-ballasted boat like a C-15 or in my case a sun-fish, you balance the sail pressure with your weight, so if you get that off, over you go, they are designed for it too.
It is all part of the fun!
I often dumped cat or my sun-fish over just so I could take a rest and float in the water without the boat running off from me (I did not want to drop the sails.)
Point being it is 100% normal for some boats to be over and seem like they are in trouble when they are perfectly find.
This should not be compared in any way to your cabin boat with ballast.
Now if cabin boats are going over, not sure I have seen that much.

Lee
One correction.
their masts float to prevent them from going turtle
.

They all can turtle :D With enough of a gust, or just an error on the captains part, 180 degrees you may go 8) I have a Phantom Sport Sailboat. 14’6” of fun. In these type of boats, you have to expect to get wet. Over the thirty-six years I have owned it, it has definitely turtled :D You get wet, then you right the hull and keep going. 8)

By the way, the Phantom was designed by a champion dingy racer named Jack Evans. His partner was Jack Howie, a one time president of AMF Alcort (they made the Sunfish). The Phantom was designed with design improvements over the Sunfish. Both are great little boats, and a terrific way to learn sailing, especially maneuvering your body weight as the ballast for the boat. Hiking out in a strong wind, just the best abdominal muscle builder out there. :)

Ray

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LoHo
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Re: Venture 222 knockdown?

Post by LoHo » Thu Oct 19, 2017 12:11 pm

That C-15 turtled in no time...the mast is from an AF15 and I don't think there's any foam in it. I got it sideways pretty quickly, but it took several minutes to drain the mast enough to right it. I hadn't planned to hike out, as two previous (light winds) sails were uneventful. The steady 15mph winds and gusts to 25 were more than our two fledgling sailing educations could handle. We were both poorly positioned in the boat (we now realize), and breaking the tiller off, leaving less than a foot to steer with, made it even worse. The water was nice, though. The big boats were much easier to sail. I now think that being able to sail the C-15 well will mean we can sail anything.

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