Lake powell and area - 2 stroke engines ban

[Catigale]

Can anyone local bring us up to date, with a good link, on current status on the proposed changes at Lake Powell and other areas out west?

[LVMike]

The reports for Lake Mead , NV are as of January 1 , 2013 ......2 strokes will be banned , much the same way they are in Lake Tahoe . You can find it at http://www.NPS.gov under planning your trip : Clean Engine Requirement - 2013

Beginning January 1, 2013, boats that do not meet the Environmental Protection Agency Rule for gasoline spark - ignition marine engines would be prohibited on Lakes Mead and Mohave. The National Park Service will require the exclusive use of four-stroke engines, direct-injection two-stroke engines or equivalent technology

[dennisneal]

LVMike,

I think the link you wanted to post was:

http://www.NPS.gov/

Also, I believe that the Evinrude E-TEC motors are the only two-stroke motors allowed at Lake Tahoe. I assume that they also qualify at other places that require low-emission engines.

I just checked the NPS website for Lake Powell and this is one of the FAQ's:

"Q: Are two-stroke motors allowed?
A: Yes, two-stroke motors are allowed on the lake."

Hope this helps.

Dennis

[rickj514]

Thanks for the NPS.gov site. Here's the complete URL: http://www.nps.gov/lake/planyourvisit/boating.htm

And here's the relevant text:

Clean Engine Requirement - 2013
Beginning January 1, 2013, boats that do not meet the Environmental Protection Agency Rule for gasoline spark - ignition marine engines would be prohibited on Lakes Mead and Mohave. The National Park Service will require the exclusive use of four-stroke engines, direct-injection two-stroke engines or equivalent technology.

Rick

[David Mellon]

The Lake Tahoe search and rescue use ETECs, because of their clean air technology, I doubt we will ever have a problem being banned.

[rickj514]

While I was looking in to this issue a couple of days ago, I sent an email inquiry to the National Parks Services. I got a response today as follows:

Thanks for your interest in Glen Canyon National Recreation Area and Lake
Powell. The cutoff date for new manufacturing of 2-stroke engines is 2012.
As far as we can tell, the cutoff for using vessels with 2-stroke engines
on federal waters is 2017. This requirement is made by the EPA, so perhaps
their website, http://www.epa.gov/otaq/marinesi.htm may help.

Going to the EPA website gets me more perplexed! However, I think there are 3 conclusions:
1- New manufacturing of "dirty" non injected 2-strokes won't be allowed after 12/31/2012
2- Two-strokes won't be allowed on federal waters after 2017. I assume that to mean lakes.
3- Individual lakes can have their own restrictions on 2-strokes, such as Lake Powell as mentioned above. I think Lake tahoe already has similar rules already in place.

Hope this helps.

Rick

[mastreb]

So is there a two-stroke inspector, or is painting "Mercury 60" on my ETEC sufficient?
Matt

[pokerrick1]

No, there are no 2 stroke police, per sey, but there ARE patrols who will look for 2 strokes, among other things like fishing licenses, life preservers, BUI and overloading - - - and I don't think you'll ever have to worry about any ETEC anywhere - - - they will be exempt from any bans

Rick

[seahouse]

Haven't studied this, (which probably places me on an equal footing with many legislaters) but I believe what I see here is a common occurrence - where legislation lags behind technology. Of course, 4-strokes of any age are much more polluting than the modern 2-strokes, so they should be banning older 4-strokes as well. The dialogue (more like "verbiage") in the link above is not really clear about that.

Or, more to the real-world, if something needs banning because of emissions, they should be banning based solely on emissions, which (data based), are quite irrespective of the number of "strokes" of the engine.

So is there a two-stroke inspector, or is painting "Mercury 60" on my ETEC sufficient?
Matt

Hey Matt - I think it would be more likely that someone with a "Mercury 60" might want to paint his engine to say "E-Tec 60".

Of course, the overall environmental goal and efforts of the laws are noble ones, and I salute the intentions.

-Brian.

[mastreb]

Of course I definitely want to encourage a clean environment, but banning engines that were legal at their time of sale is unprecedented and not legal in the U.S.

"Grandfathering" isn't just something legislator's decide to do, it's required by the U.S. Constitution under Article 1 Section 9, "Limits on Congress": "No Bill of Attainder or ex post facto Law shall be passed." That's a hard stop, period, no exceptions. Classifying it as a "regulation" doesn't matter--If operating an engine that was legal at purchase can somehow be turned into a crime, it's a violation of ex post facto. You can't pass a new law to create a crime out of something already done, or make illegal the use of an item that was legal when it was purchased, unless you want to compensate the owner for the fair market value of the property. Forcing a person to cease the use of property without restitution is an illegal taking, and has always been held so by the courts.

This ban would not stand up to serious legal scrutiny. Suits against this sort of thing are why old cars are still legal to drive even though they don't meet current emission standards.

The right way to encourage people to stop using old engines is to put a "recycle fee" on new engines of $500 or so dollars. This increases the new price of engines by $500 across the board (and to people who can clearly afford them). This money goes into fund which is then used to purchase old outboards for $500, providing that they are operational.

This means that no outboard worth less than $500 will continue to operate because the owner will sell it to the government for the recycling fee. A practical system would be based on something like "$10 per horse power" or some such, but that's the ethical and legal way to do this sort of thing.

It also takes money from the rich (new buyers) and transfers it to the poor (old used engine operators) so if you're into capital redistribution amongst the classes it works there as well. I'm not personally, but there's no denying how much less litter there is now that people can be paid to pick it up.

Matt

[dennisneal]

Mastreb,

Its my understanding that if you put a boat with a carbureted two-stroke outboard motor into Lake Tahoe, you will likely be caught and evicted, or, possibly fined.

You may feel that you have a constitutional right to use such an engine anywhere. But, I still think you will be evicted, or possibly fined.

http://boattahoe.com/trparegs.htm

[David Mellon]

Dennis, that link on your post is on a list from ESET for having dangerous viral material and I was automatically denied access. Just so you know.

[mastreb]

Mastreb,

Its my understanding that if you put a boat with a carbureted two-stroke outboard motor into Lake Tahoe, you will likely be caught and evicted, or, possibly fined.

You may feel that you have a constitutional right to use such an engine anywhere. But, I still think you will be evicted, or possibly fined.

http://boattahoe.com/trparegs.htm

Of course! You can't appeal a law without first being convicted. So yeah, you'd really have to care to fight this one, which is kind of sad.

Also, constitutional limitations only apply to the federal congress. If Tahoe isn't a national park, then California and Nevada can do whatever they want within the confines of their own constitution, and it's up to their citizens to oppose it under state constitution. I doubt you'll see 2-stroke restrictions enforced on national park lakes for that reason.

Matt

[Hamin' X]

Dennis, that link on your post is on a list from ESET for having dangerous viral material and I was automatically denied access. Just so you know.

I have a number of active scanners in place and detect no problem with the link. Just so folks know, as a Moderator, I check ALL links fro problems.

Disclaimer, I know nothing about the ESET online scanner. I will say that I have not had an online infection since 1989.

~Rich

[dennisneal]

David,

I have Norton Internet Security and Mc Afee Antivirus both running on my PC. (I don't know how they can co-exist, but they do.) Neither detected a problem with the Tahoe link. Thanks for the info, though.

Dennis