4 Furlers Mac 26M

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mastreb
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Re: 4 Furlers Mac 26M

Post by mastreb »

BOAT wrote:
I do not believe this post. It's not believable for too many reasons. Releasing the jib would not do a thing once the main sail is in the water. When a sailboat capsizes the mast goes under - and then the rest is slow death. I have no clue who that guy was but he has never sailed on a MAC M boat as far as I am concerned and it's obvious to me that he has never experienced a real capsize on a sailboat. I have.
I believe it, but I wouldn't refer to it as a knockdown. This is a heavy, sudden heel IMHO. I don't think he said the main went into the water, just the boom. If he was sheeted way out I could see it.

To me, a knockdown is a wet mainsail flat in the water and a boat on its side. I guess that technically defines a capsize.
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BOAT
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Re: 4 Furlers Mac 26M

Post by BOAT »

It is hard to define it - everyone seems to have a different meaning when they say "knockdown". When ever I run across a sailing story in SAIL mag or others if the title has the word "Knockdown" in it I always read it only to find in most cases it's about a racing boat that lost a race because the boat had too much sail and got "knocked over" and stopped. What I would normally call 'broached' (when your rudders are out of the water and you turn without control). I was sailing in a race with my dad in Mexico once and that happened, a boat barged us and dad called "right of way" and at the last minute dad pulled up hard on the tiller to try to pass behind the barging boat but it did not work, the sudden turn away from the very strong wind broached the boat and then rudder would not work - we rammed the other boat putting a two foot hole in his gunnel. The last minute attempt was only an un-required courtesy my dad attempted to prevent damage to the other boat because we were well in the right of way and it was a race.

When the boat is so far over the rudder no longer works (or about 90 degrees) I call that a "broach" - very recoverable.

When a boat has the sails in the water I call that a knockdown. That's the true test of your ballast. Will the boat recover with sails full of water? That is all you need to know, will it or won't it?

That's the question.

If you don't recover I call it a capsize.

The real test is to put the sails in the water. I really would rather not test that.
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mastreb
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Re: 4 Furlers Mac 26M

Post by mastreb »

I think that's a reasonable definition.

To get an EU "A" all-ocean or "B" offshore rating, a boat has to be self-righting under all circumstances, so long as it is intact. The "A" rating requires self-righting within some number of seconds (I forget exactly how long, but its less than 3 minutes), and the "B" rating has to be self-righting eventually. The "C" Coastal rating does not require self-righting capability, and the "D" protected waters rating doesn't require stability against wave action.

My other boat is rated A8, but only just barely. I did the stability calculations on it and found it was designed to hit the required stability factors to decimal places. Any wider, it would fail to make the A rating. It's angle of vanishing stability (capsize angle) is just 126 degrees. Wave action and the keel are expected to re-right the boat, as it does not have infinite stability. Any heavier, and it would have to have even more keel weight to compensate and pull it around when turtled. On the plus side, it will entirely float on either side with the companionway above water should the keel break off. I'm pretty sure MacGregors will float on their side above the companionway as well.

The Tattoo 26/MacGregor 26M is rated C6, what you would expect. Probably the 26X would be rated the same, but I believe it went out of production before those EU rules were implemented. The angle of vanishing stability on a MacGregor is a lot higher than you'd expect: 110 degrees. Beyond that it will turtle however, and without a lead keel, it may never roll back upright in normal non-breaking waves.
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Ixneigh
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Re: 4 Furlers Mac 26M

Post by Ixneigh »

Without breaking waves the Mac should never get there in the first place right?
One could mount a mast head float for added insurance.

Ix
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mastreb
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Re: 4 Furlers Mac 26M

Post by mastreb »

Ixneigh wrote:Without breaking waves the Mac should never get there in the first place right?
One could mount a mast head float for added insurance.

Ix
I thought about this, and imagined that a significant rolling torque stopped by a masthead float would likely break the mast and rigging (considering that just twanging a channel marker can), but that rig failure would relieve both the holding force of the sails in the water and the wind on the sails, thus allowing the boat to right. So yes, a mast-head float would likely solve turtling one way or the other.
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BOAT
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Re: 4 Furlers Mac 26M

Post by BOAT »

Ixneigh wrote:Without breaking waves the Mac should never get there in the first place right?
One could mount a mast head float for added insurance.

Ix
Absolutely yes it will, that's my whole point - Go back to the plastic egg story, the MAC can be blown right out of the water like the egg because of the high freeboard.

If it's blown upside down or thrown upside down and enough water gets into the boat there is a chance it will not recover. This of course all requires the need for a gale, typhoon, hurricane, sharknado, call it what you want - it's the thing that could capsize the boat.

The MAC really can't be sailing in gale force storms at sea. (80% of ALL boats on the water can't sail in gale force storms). And it's common for boats that CAN sail in that stuff to get swamped occasionally.

It happens ALL THE TIME

That's why I like Rogers 70 footer so much - THAT is a LOW LOW freeboard boat designed to slice right under hurricane force seas with ease with a warm dry skipper in a nice toasty pilot house sipping coffee that was just brewed on the stove just a few feet below his helm. All the comforts a human needs in the worst the ocean can throw at you.

Yup, if I was a rich guy that's the setup I would want:
Travel all the coastlines of any nation with a MAC 26 M boat and a decent tow truck;
Travel coast to coast to any nation in a MAC70.
That would be the perfect set up to me. Roger has what I think is the perfect setup.
I would want BOTH boats, the convenience of having both is obvious and I see why so many on this site with big boats also have a MAC.
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BOAT
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Re: 4 Furlers Mac 26M

Post by BOAT »

For the guys that experience this all the time they call it a "Broach" or a "Chinese Gybe" If you look up Chinese Gybe you will get 'Broach'. It's where the boat is pinned over on it's side because of the wind. The rudders are out of the water, that's why the boat is pinned down, no way to turn without a rudder. And the boat has stopped - this is something all MAC owners should be prepared to experience if they sail in heavy winds - it can happen, (it WILL happen if you go out in the 40 plus stuff), but is very recoverable and it is NOT a "knockdown". I have experienced it many times in a 23 foot boat myself and seen others pilot through them in larger boats. They are very recoverable and should be expected in really big wind.

The guys that experience it all the time call it a Chinese Gybe, not a knockdown. Or at least from what I can gather the "Chinese Gybe" is the maneuver that got them into the "Broach"

This boat in the video is very strong - it would have recovered sooner if the mast had broken, but the boat did not break and all the sails remained so the recovery was a bit slower. You will also notice that as soon as a rudder starts to touch back into the water the helmsman starts "sculling' the rudder to get some forward motion. It's the lack of motion that makes the broach last longer - the sooner the boat can get forward motion the sooner it can maneuver back on it's legs. In a really bad blow it is possible for a boat to be pinned down on it's side and not recover for a very long time and thus the risk of swamping - if swamping happens there is a risk of capsize. I would assume a MAC would capsize if it were swamped. I would NOT assume an A rated boat to capsize it it were swamped. That is the difference.

I also read that the keel position might be slowing down the recovery of the boat. This further attests to the boats rating that it will not capsize just because of a broach.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d89-0-lp7yI

Your all going to ask why the skipper did not release the mainsheet, (and we should in such cases), but I think because this skipper is in a race and trying to gain speed ASAP and he obviously knows his boat; he knows the mast is strong - he was not worried and he already had a reef in the main. He just wanted to get back in the race and get going fast ASAP. The whole crew would all be very serious about racing so their actions make sense to me in that situation. The skipper would have been acting as the crew would have wanted: get in there and get back in the race! It appears the traveled was already positioned for the tack (gybe) before it occurred as it appears the move was to point very high upwind after the gybe. Jibe. Some guys were yelling for a knife but it seems the skipper did not see the need to cut lines.
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grady
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Re: 4 Furlers Mac 26M

Post by grady »

http://www.volvooceanrace.com/en/video/ ... t-out.html

So what is the difference between them? :D :D :D
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Jeff L
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Re: 4 Furlers Mac 26M

Post by Jeff L »

grady wrote:http://www.volvooceanrace.com/en/video/ ... t-out.html

So what is the difference between them? :D :D :D


Looks like a faster recovery with this team... :)
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grady
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Re: 4 Furlers Mac 26M

Post by grady »

Jeff L wrote:
grady wrote:http://www.volvooceanrace.com/en/video/ ... t-out.html

So what is the difference between them? :D :D :D


Looks like a faster recovery with this team... :)
Difference between upwind knock down and a down wind broach.
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