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26M front stay too short to rig to spec?

A forum for discussion of how to rig and tune your boat or kicker to achieve the best sailing performance.

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26M front stay too short to rig to spec?

Postby Bluecrab » Mon Aug 07, 2017 9:22 pm

We have a 2005 26M we purchased fall of 07. After sailing a few other boats most recently, Hake RK26, Hunter 28, Tartan 34, which all have some weather helm, I would like a little bit of it in our boat and have worked on my rigging adjustments again to increasing rake but there seemed to be no noticeable change. A popular book I have on rigging recommends about 8 degrees of weather helm. The motor does disconnect from the steering when sailing to give better feel. I have a video of my wife and I out last year in some pretty good wind heeling between 25 and 30 degrees with no tendency to round up. The Hake RK26 would have stood up and stopped in those conditions without steering away hard or reducing the main and the Hunter starts round at about 15 degrees.

The PO had set the rake with the fore stay turnbuckle closed to within an 1/8 of an inch. The mast was almost vertical. I have extend the fore stay a couple of times in the past and re tension-ed the shrouds with out any noticeable difference. In my latest attempt I have completely opened the turnbuckle and my rake dimension is still only about 9-10 inches (halyard to mast). I have only been out once for a short time with the new setting but still didn't seem to notice much change. There is no way I could get to the 156 inches measurement from bow to mast shown in the manual or the 3 degrees (18 inches) recommended by others. I doubt it but did the PO have the fore stay shortened?

I plan to try the current setting for now but was wondering from other :macm: owners at what point does the :macm: begin to have some weather helm and what they have their rake set to? The boat points very well and I don't want to loose that, I can go pretty much anywhere no matter what the wind direction.

Thanks,
Wally
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Re: 26M front stay too short to rig to spec?

Postby sailboatmike » Tue Aug 08, 2017 2:33 am

Rounding up generally happens the centerboard and rudders lose grip or your sails are poorly balanced , boats should have a little weather helm but only a small amount, and no boat should round up in conditions that make for 15 degrees of heel, thats about 10knts of wind on a M, the boat is not even fully powered up in that little wind.

If you really want to induce weather helm decrease the jib area, but even then I think you would struggle on a M to round it up.

The M is meant to sail at about 30 degrees or slightly more fully powered up, the X slightly less at between about 22 and 27 degrees.

The mast on the M is not designed to have much more than a degree or 2 back rake, the X has some of the highest back rake angle on any boat I know at 4 degrees over the 29 or so feet of mast height 4 degrees is a long way, I have mine set at around 2 degrees.

Im not really sure what you are trying to accomplish by having the boat round up and such low wind speeds, if your worried about heel angle reef the sails or let them out, she will sail much flatter and as we know flat is fast.

Rather than try and emulate the poor setup on those other boats you should be proud that your boat isnt so bad that it will round up if someone breaks wind in its general direction
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Re: 26M front stay too short to rig to spec?

Postby Tomfoolery » Tue Aug 08, 2017 10:23 am

I'm going to agree with everything Mike said above, including using other boats as a reference. Who's to say they're properly tuned? Or properly sailed?

I have reduced the rake in my mast, and it still wants to round up badly in a strong gust (old main, full genoa), but if I anticipate and let out the main just a little when a strong gust hits, I can keep it from rounding up, and even steer it, just with the main sheet and avoid excessive heeling and loss of speed. That's close-hauled. Swinging the CB back a little may also help, but that's not going to happen when it's under load, and I'm too lazy to worry about it for the most part. :D
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Re: 26M front stay too short to rig to spec?

Postby Bluecrab » Tue Aug 08, 2017 1:18 pm

sailboatmike wrote: boats should have a little weather helm but only a small amount

The M is meant to sail at about 30 degrees or slightly more fully powered up

Im not really sure what you are trying to accomplish by having the boat round up and such low wind speeds

Rather than try and emulate the poor setup on those other boats you should be proud that your boat isnt so bad that it will round up if someone breaks wind in its general direction


Thanks for your input. I enjoy reading about others experiences and how they like to sail.

That's what I am looking for but don't seem to have "a little weather helm". Roger says in the manual pg 26 "when trimmed properly, the boat should want to head up into the wind when you let go of the wheel"

Earlier on pg 26 "Even with less sail the boat will be faster if the heeling angle is kept below 25 degrees. Beyond that, performance goes all to hull."

I didn't say I want my boat to emulate the set up on these other boats but sailing them has prompted me to investigate my own setup more. I want to here from :macm: owners at what point in the rigging adjustment they begin to notice some weather helm?

We were coming back from a fun sail where the bluffs on both sides of the lake can create some pretty strong winds and ducked behind a point to get out of the wind and put the sail down. I wasn't paying attention and we must caught a gust coming from along the back side of the bluffs. The boat started to heel and I couldn't reach the main to release it, I was able to turn into the wind and stand it up but not before we pegged the indicator. 2 thoughts crossed my mind, is this going to stop and maybe a "little" weather helm would have been nice?

Thanks again,
Wally
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Re: 26M front stay too short to rig to spec?

Postby sailboatmike » Tue Aug 08, 2017 4:39 pm

If she is refusing to round up even in strong gusts you may have too much foresail out, think of the center of effort of the sails with the centerboard being the pivot point, if the center of effort is behind the pivot point she will round up into the wind (acceptable) or if the center of effort is forward of the pivot point she will turn down wind (Lee helm and dangerous).

In reality a properly tuned rig and sail balance should sail dead straight without wheel input this way the boat sails with rudders straight creating less drag and turbulence and maximising the efficiency of the boat, however if you have to have some input weather helm is preferable as its safer to round up than gybe in a gust.

I would also check that your rudders are fully down hard and locked in, even letting them move back a very small amount will change the dynamics of the boat and effect the balance
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Re: 26M front stay too short to rig to spec?

Postby Highlander » Fri Aug 11, 2017 3:02 pm

personally I prefer no round up work the sheets instead , but,s that,s just my preference & depending on ur sailing expertise & if u have a very young crew "small children" may not b a good thing either

J 8)
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Re: 26M front stay too short to rig to spec?

Postby Newell » Tue Aug 15, 2017 6:35 pm

I can't address M rounding issues, but have my Masts on both X and D straight up (90). Boats will tend to round up in relation to the wind increases. In too much wind (think big!) the boat will round up. Unless sail is reduced or run off-wind.

"wasn't paying attention and we must caught a gust coming from along the back side of the bluffs. The boat started to heel and I couldn't reach the main to release it, I was able to turn into the wind and stand it up but not before we pegged the indicator"

Sounds more like you got hit from the side and weren't moving when the wind hit, the boat heeled way over and it had no chance to round into the wind. This just happened to all 15 boats racing in Pinedale, WY this weekend. We had no wind, just eking .6 knt then wham all boats on the rails sliding sideways. The U20 with 3 man crew lost 1 to the water for 45 mins. Smartly, he was wearing his vest.
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