Who makes a good spinnaker

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Highlander
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Re: Who makes a good spinnaker

Post by Highlander » Sun Sep 30, 2018 3:41 pm

Wow I only pd $300 Cn. for mine New . when I bought my boat new in 2008 in an inclusive deal with Dowsar Yachts :)

J 8)

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Judy B
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Re: Who makes a good spinnaker

Post by Judy B » Mon Oct 01, 2018 5:23 pm

whgoffrn wrote:Just curious of those of u all who use a spinnaker who makes a good affordable one with a sock.... I've noticed when on vacation I always pick the lightest days to go snorkeling in the keys which of course makes the water clarity good and swimming conditions/waves good but I hate the fact that the boat now wont move at all or so slow it renders my boat useless under sail.... while I do love waiting for higher winds to go sailing if I'm going to go trolling offshore for fish or snorkeling at the reefs a few miles out I usually wait till I see 1ft swells on wavefinder which usually means little to no wind so it got me considering a spinnaker but I'm a total rookie and have no idea what I'm doing with a spinnaker and have some learning to do with the added dangers and how to avoid them.... I prob would add a sock to it to help if winds come up but in reality I've not gotten caught in a squall in many years that I didnt purposely go into so I feel I've gotten good at reading weather and being diligent to check my weather apps
There are a bunch of terms being tossed around loosely - asymmetric spinnaker, gennaker, drifter, Code Zero, etc.

Here's what you need to know to make a decision about what to get: Start by prioritizing what you want to do in light wind. No single lightwind sail sails all angles equally well, so pick your sailing angle and go from there. Do you want to prioritize sailing upwind/reaching or reaching/downwind? U nfoturnately, we can't built a sail that's optimized for everything.

[Keep in mind, please, that when the boat is moving, the apparent wind moves forward. Apparent wind is thhe wind you feel on your face and the wind that the sails "feel". Example: your boat is sitting stationary with the sails luffing and the wind coming over the side slightly aft of the beam. That's the true wind angle. As you sheet the sails and the boat accelerates forward and the wind seems to move forward, so it's coming more from the bow. That's the apparent wind angle. ]

So here are some definitions, as I use them. Marketing types will use many of the terms interchangeably, but they're different sails, and vary in area and construction. Area and construction details add to cost. Simply put, the smaller the sail, the less it costs.


Below: Genoa and drifter
Image

Genoa: The sail is shaped to maximize your ability to sail as close to the wind as possible. For sailing downwind, you can use the whisker pole to hold the clew out. If you use the whisker pole, it will sail downwind, but there are sails that will go faster downwind in light wind. It has a hollow luff to offset forestay sagging, hollow leech to prevent fluttering. It is hanked onto the forestay or furled around a rigid extrusions furler. Genoas are typically 150 t0 155% LP. For a Mac 26x, It's a 150% genoa, about 186 square feet.

Drifter:
a very big genoa with a comparatively high clew, made of very lightweight nylon. Usually equivalent in size and shape to a 170-180% genoa. Has a comparatively deep draft to generate a lot of power. It has a straight or hollow luff, hollow leech to prevent fluttering, and straight or rounded foot. It is designed for sailing close to the wind, but can be sailed at deeper angles if you pole out the clew with a whisker pole. If you don't have a furler on the forestay, it can be hanked on to the forestay. If you have a genoa on a furler, you to use it as a "free-flying" sail on it's own super lower stretch luff cable or free flying furler that has a low stretch luff cable. Or you use it with a low stretch luff cable and a snuffer.

The drifter is optimized for sailing upwind in just a few knots of breeze. On a Mac26x, a 175% drifter would be about 217 square feet, or 17% bigger than a genoa. It has a deeper draft to generate more power than a 150% genoa.

Below: Cruising Code Zero and Cruising Chute/Gennaker/All purpose Asymmetric Spinnaker
Image


Cruising Code Zero
A cruising code zero has an almost straight luff (with just a little bit of positive roach) and a spinnaker on the leech (with a moderate amount of positive roach). It has a straight luff, and a rounded leech like a spinnaker. It has a draft that's deeper than an genoa or a drifter, for still more power in light wind. For the Mac 26X it would be about 275-300 sf, or about 55-60% bigger than a 150% genoa. A Code 0 won't point quite as high as a genoa, but pretty close. It usually comes with its own very low stretch rope in the luff, and can be flown using a snuffer or a free-flying furler (either top down or bottom up furler. Examples are the Selden CX or GX) . It is big enough and powerful enough to get the boat going almost as fast as the true wind speed when the apparent wind angle is about on the beam or as high as 35 or 40 degrees off the bow.

For sailing off the wind, you can pole it out with the whisker pole.

All Purpose Asymmetric Spinnaker, aka Gennaker, Cruising Chute, AP Chute
Asymms are also know as gennakers.
They are optimized to provide power for reaching and for sailing downwind angles, when the wind is coming from the beam or from behind the beam. That is 80-145 degrees off the bow.
The are shaped like spinnakers on all three sides. That means the luff, leech and foot are all rounded and add more area to the sail. The luff (from the tack to the head) has a moderate amount of roach, up high at the "shoulders". They are shaped to be stable from around 80 degrees to 145 degrees of apparent wind. The angle to the true wind will be even deeper once the boat gets moving.

An Asymmetric spinnaker can be used with a snuffer or a free flying "top down furler" that has a low stretch and torque resistant cable incorporated into the furler. For example, the Selden CX furler.

An all purpose Asymm for the Mac 26X would be about 360 sf, or about 90% bigger than a 150% genoa.
With an asymmetric spinnaker, you can sail downwind on a deep reach as fast or faster than the true wind speed.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
So the take home message, the sails are listed from smallest to larges, and from least powerful to more powerful in terms of area and draft.

Genoa - for sailing upwind and reaching. Can be used with whisker pole for downwind. Hank onto the forestay, or free flying from the head and foot on a furler or snuffer sock
Drifter - for sailing upwind and reaching. Can be used with whisker pole for downwind. Hank onto the forestay, or free flying from the head and foot on a furler or snuffer sock
Code Zero - for sailing upwind angles and reaching in light wind. Powerful enough to sail at approx the speed of the wind or faster. Can be used with whisker pole for downwind. Free flying with a furler or snuffer sock.
All purpose Asymmetric Spinnaker or Gennaker - for reaching and sailing deeper angles at the speed of the wind or even faster. Not for use at apparent wind angles closer than 90% (a beam reach). It won't have a stable shape pointing higher than a beam reach. Free flying with a furler or snuffer.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

PS. Racing crews generally just hoist and douse the sail without a snuffer sock or furler, but they use several skilled crew members to keep it under control.
PPS. Racing asymmetric spinnakers can be optimized for narrower ranges of wind angles and wind strengths, but for most cruisers, the best choice is the "All Purpose" reacher/runner Aysmm.

kurz
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Re: Who makes a good spinnaker

Post by kurz » Tue Oct 02, 2018 3:12 am

Thanks Judy
I saved your post for later re-reading later.

Two quesitons:

a) I have the "normal" assym spinnaker for the :macm: . What is the min and max windspeed?

b) Whsiker pole: How long has it to be for using with the Genoa? I guess it is not so nice to have too long things on board. Does it make sense to use it with the asym spinnaker?

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Judy B
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Re: Who makes a good spinnaker

Post by Judy B » Tue Oct 02, 2018 2:10 pm

kurz wrote:Thanks Judy
I saved your post for later re-reading later.

Two quesitons:

a) I have the "normal" assym spinnaker for the :macm: . What is the min and max windspeed?

b) Whisker pole: How long has it to be for using with the Genoa? I guess it is not so nice to have too long things on board. Does it make sense to use it with the asym spinnaker?
a) There is no such thing as a "normal" or "standard" assym for the :macm:. Macgregor never specified an asymm. You and your sailmaker should decide what apparent winde angles and apparent wind speed range you will sail, and then build it accordingly.

In general, spinnakers made of .75 oz nylon, the max apparent wind speed due to structural concerns is typically around 12-15 kts, depending on the particular nylon used. For 1.5-2.2 oz nylon, structurally, I could be over 20 kts. But, the devils in the details. No sail maker will give you a warranty against exploding your asymm because it exploded. The most common way to blow up a spinnaker is to have it collapse and then fill rapidly in a gust.

From a "comfortable sailing" point of view, that's up to the sailor. I doubt you'd want to use the asymm in over 15 knots apparent. It would be a white knuckle ride for a cruiser.

b) The whisker pole should be as long as it needs to be to get the headsail poled out as far as practical. For poling out a 150 genoa, the telescoping whisker pole should be 14-15 feet long. Set the length to about 9-10 feet long to pole out a 100% jib.
A whisker pole can be used to pole out a cruising code zero at the clew, for sailing downwind.
It's not useful to pole out the clew of an asymm/gennaker when sailing downwind.

Spinnaker poles go from the mast to the tack of the spinnaker, not to the clew. A whisker pole isn't strong enough to be used as a spinnaker pole going to the tack of the asymm.

Judy

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dlandersson
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Re: Who makes a good spinnaker

Post by dlandersson » Wed Oct 03, 2018 4:38 am

I have often toyed with the idea of getting one of these:

http://www.istec.ag/us/parasail.html
Highlander wrote:Wow I only pd $300 Cn. for mine New . when I bought my boat new in 2008 in an inclusive deal with Dowsar Yachts :)

J 8)

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