Better Pointing into the Wind

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Neo
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Better Pointing into the Wind

Post by Neo » Fri Apr 26, 2019 10:30 pm

Hi all,

I got told something a few weeks back about 26M which is worthy of an open discussion and your experience would be great appreciated.

Apparently when sailing into the wind a 26M points better/closer to the wind with a regular (hoist up) Jib than it does with a roller furler. I guess a possible reason for this would be when you have a partially furled sail and the rolled luff is effectively a fat bar, which changes the aerofoil effect on the sail. And this could be worse on one side than the other (depending on which way your furler's rolled). But once fully unfurled why would it be any different to a regular Jib???

Would also like your thoughts on how to make a 26M point closer into the wind (and still make headway!). From my experience, depending on wind and conditions I can at sail 45 to 60 degrees and anything between 45 and 30 degrees loses a significant amount of power.

Please share your thoughts?

All the best.
Neo

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Re: Better Pointing into the Wind

Post by 1st Sail » Sun Apr 28, 2019 8:43 pm

Pointing ability is primarily a function of sail shape. I can tell you my oem sails after 10 years would not point. I replaced both head and jib with BWYachts challenge series. Now it is a new boat that points, sails with less heel, accelerates in the puffs, and sales faster on all points of sail.

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Re: Better Pointing into the Wind

Post by Alexis » Mon Apr 29, 2019 2:47 pm

1st Sail wrote:
Sun Apr 28, 2019 8:43 pm
Pointing ability is primarily a function of sail shape. I can tell you my oem sails after 10 years would not point.
Hi 1st Sail,

I am confused: in which sense do you use "shape"? I would assume that a sail ability to point depends more on how it is trimmed than on its age... Am I wrong? I have no idea how old are my sails, though seems to be OEM and came with the boat (so they would be 23 yo). I observed I could point at a true 45deg. I think that it is not great, but it is not that bad either as a lot of reputable boat can't do any better.

My recommendations would be: make sure the halyards are tight, adjust the jib cars to have the telltales flying both sides all the way up, adjust and ease the headsail just enough to pick the wind. Don't forget to accumulate speed before you start to point: you need speed in order to point.

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Re: Better Pointing into the Wind

Post by 1st Sail » Wed May 01, 2019 10:41 pm

Trim angle is most certainly important. However, sail shape is also important. The difference between a new sail and an old sail is the new sail is cut and sewn to proper shape. Whereas the old sail was cut and sewn to proper shape but is now stretched and can no longer maintain proper shape. There in lies the problem. A new sail with proper shape sails with less heel on all points of sail and presents greater sail area to the the wind. Not only will the new sail sail faster but also point higher as it is more efficient. Now matter how you trim a new sail will always out perform a blow out old sail trimmed to the same angle as a new sail. A new sail will sail flat with minimum camber. You can add camber to a new sail as needed. With an old sail (previously mine) you can't remove the stretched in camber no matter what as the cloth is stretched and deformed. Off the wind you want a sail with more camber and deep belly. So an old sail will actually perform as well as a new sail off the wind. Hence the deep belly of my spinnaker. But as you point higher starting from a broad reach to a close reach new sail performance increases significantly over the old blown out sail.

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Neo
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Re: Better Pointing into the Wind

Post by Neo » Thu May 02, 2019 2:58 am

Good info 1st Sail.
Both my sails have had minimal use since new. But as I get closer into the wind my Jib will start to flap way before the Main.

So three questions spring to mind....
# Regardless of performance, the tighter the Jib sheet the closer into the wind I'll get??
# Is it more important to have a new Jib than a new Main?... I know both is best.
# Is there any way and hanked Jib could sail into the wind better than on a furler?

Many thanks.
Neo

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Re: Better Pointing into the Wind

Post by 1st Sail » Sun May 05, 2019 8:31 am

Hi Neo,

Both my sails have had minimal use since new. But as I get closer into the wind my Jib will start to flap way before the Main.

If you haven't sailed in high winds with your oem sail they most likely still retain their shape.

The 26M traveler allows you to trim the main to center line or just windward of the center line where as the jib tracks are outside the center line. In term of sail angle to the wind the main may be trimmed closer to the wind than the jib so the jib will always luff first.

So three questions spring to mind....
# Regardless of performance, the tighter the Jib sheet the closer into the wind I'll get??

Yes. You may very well be trimming your sails correctly. Unfortunately the Mac will not point as high as other sail boats. When you have trimmed your sails close to the center line and the sails start to luff and the boat stalls you have essentially reached the 'iron sail point', you just cannot point any higher. The new sails did make a difference. They are full batten so the sail shape is much improved. Thus speed and ability to point.

# Is it more important to have a new Jib than a new Main?... I know both is best.

With a main/jib sail set the main is the power sail. I bought my BWYacht Challenge sail first and sailed it with the Oem hank on jib. Definitely made a significant difference. Note: the performance benefit (delta) between a new sail/proper sail shape and an old blown out sail improves the closer you sail to the wind. Off the wind the performance difference becomes less. When you think about it an old blown out bellied main sail has some of the characteristics of spinnaker... so the new flat sail is actually less effective off the wind vs the old sail. From off the the wind to the wind sail shape performance improves over the old sail (shape) and conversely.

# Is there any way and hanked Jib could sail into the wind better than on a furler?

Most agree a hank on is more efficient than a furler mounted sail. The difference is nominal however. Not to dis my Mac but you can tweak the sails with adjustable outhauls, back stays, cunninghams, etc. and the speed difference is in tenths of a knot. With a theoretical hull speed of 6knts+ the return on effort is minimal. I will admit more often than not I try to get as much speed as possible just to test my skills. And there are days we just sail to relax and enjoy our boat.

This year I planned to add a wind system and then put the our M to the test once and for all. Bought new cameras to video and document the results with the intention to post for all to use as a reference. We are high and dry at least until June as the Miss River just set a 150yr record high flood level. Nearest lake is 200mi so plans are on hold. That Gemini is looking better every day. (Selling the company this year and maybe the house).

Hope you are out there sailing!
Dave

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Neo
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Re: Better Pointing into the Wind

Post by Neo » Sun May 05, 2019 2:19 pm

Wow!.... Thanks Dave. Lots of information there I'll read a few times to make it stick :D

All the best.
Neo

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Re: Better Pointing into the Wind

Post by Baha » Mon May 06, 2019 3:20 am

Seems there are those who are driven by performance, and also those (like me) who just go loaf around on our boat...:)

I sail in a pretty challenging area, UK-Norfolk coast. Lots of tide, currents, variable winds, shoals, etc. I don't have any fun out there if I go for that last half-knot of speed, unless the water is flat, and there isn't a 6 knot tidal current ruining my day. Also, I would not get a wind instrument until I had a good grip on reading the wind patterns in your area. I just trust my eyes, and the back of my neck more than another piece of electronics...just my opinion.

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Neo
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Re: Better Pointing into the Wind

Post by Neo » Mon May 06, 2019 7:03 am

I sail a large lake with a number of wide channels and low mountain ranges either side. Well trimmed sails and a good wind instrument can make the difference between getting out of a channels undersail or admitting defeat and motoring out :| ... either way it's still fun 8)

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Re: Better Pointing into the Wind

Post by Alexis » Tue May 07, 2019 3:45 pm

Thanks, Dave. This is very informative!

I will watch my sails very closely but I guess that they are not so bad for EOM ones. I have never used them in very strong winds and I know the previous owners didn't as well.

BTW, here is a very informative article on the topic of old sails versus new sails: https://www.pbo.co.uk/news/difference-n ... make-18362 The pictures illustrate exactly what Dave wrote in his post.

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Re: Better Pointing into the Wind

Post by Ixneigh » Thu May 09, 2019 11:07 pm

Weather ability in the M
Good sails.
Hank on jib
Tight halyards
Proper sail up (reef the main first)
Properly set up shrouds
Understanding sail trim
Understanding the boats requirements (speed above 3 knots heel 15 degrees
Don’t over trim the sails. Although I do find that I can crank the jib in a bit more than I might expect. If it’s windy, the luff of the main might be a bit backwinded. It’s important to keep speed up since the daggerboard isn’t very wide.

Extra stuff on my M
Low sunshade not standard Bimini
2nd reef point in main
Running back stays

Lastly I’ve found that often the boat will sail herself to weather better than I can once everything’s adjusted. Today we sailed for hours with the wheel lock on, hardly touched it.

Ix

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Re: Better Pointing into the Wind

Post by dlandersson » Fri May 10, 2019 4:19 am

Thank you for the article. Very informative. 8)
Alexis wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 3:45 pm
Thanks, Dave. This is very informative!

I will watch my sails very closely but I guess that they are not so bad for EOM ones. I have never used them in very strong winds and I know the previous owners didn't as well.

BTW, here is a very informative article on the topic of old sails versus new sails: https://www.pbo.co.uk/news/difference-n ... make-18362 The pictures illustrate exactly what Dave wrote in his post.

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Neo
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Re: Better Pointing into the Wind

Post by Neo » Fri May 10, 2019 5:14 am

Hi Ixneigh,

Please explain you thoughts and experience on using a "Hank on jib" for better pointing ... It's the main reason I posted up this thread.

All the best.
Neo

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Re: Better Pointing into the Wind

Post by Baha » Fri May 10, 2019 8:41 am

I would think a hank-on foresail would be a pain, especially since I usually am single-handed. My solution was to get a jib with luff pads that help maintain good sail shape when you reef it in. It works very well, and aids in pointing a bit higher, in my opinion.

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Re: Better Pointing into the Wind

Post by Tomfoolery » Fri May 10, 2019 8:59 am

Baha wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 8:41 am
I would think a hank-on foresail would be a pain, especially since I usually am single-handed.
On my Aquarius, I added a downhaul to the jib, which certainly helped dowse the sail especially when the water was too rough to go forward. Single-handed sailing also made it tough to go through the cabin and pop out the hatch to dowse the sail.

But a furler is the only way to fly, IMO. I wouldn't even bother looking at a boat without a furler, and for a big boat, an in-mast furling main sail, too. Luff pads can help when furling a genoa, but to be honest, my Mac isn't exactly a speedy sailboat unless I fire up the Honda. Which I'm happy to do. :wink:

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