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Re: Better Pointing into the Wind

Posted: Fri May 10, 2019 4:58 pm
by Ixneigh
Hi Neo.
It comes down to shape. The hank on jib can have the ideal shape. A roller furling jib has to roll up. It’s shape is partially dictated by that. The RF genny can’t be rolled to reduce it to working jib size effectively either. Yes the hank on Jib is a pain. But with practice it gets better. I have the after market cruising jib. I leave it up to two reefs in the main. Hard on the wind I average about five knots at heel just shy of dog revolt. Where shape comes in is also power to punch through chop, not just speed.
The macs need good sails since they are such a compromise. The more “right” everything is, the better they will sail. Upwind will suck in any boat though. Im sailing mine harder then I normally do in prep for a Bahamas trip. I need to really know what her capabilities are. And fix a few leaks and other fine tuning.

Ix

Re: Better Pointing into the Wind

Posted: Fri May 10, 2019 11:40 pm
by Neo
Thanks Ixneigh.
Ixneigh wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 4:58 pm
dog revolt
Sound yuk :D ... but what angle is this?

Re: Better Pointing into the Wind

Posted: Sun May 12, 2019 5:01 pm
by Ixneigh
They start to give me “the look” at around 20 degrees.

Re: Better Pointing into the Wind

Posted: Mon May 13, 2019 3:18 am
by Neo
Ixneigh wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 5:01 pm
They start to give me “the look” at around 20 degrees.
A man after my own heart ... I love to heel 8)

Re: Better Pointing into the Wind

Posted: Mon May 13, 2019 7:30 pm
by 1st Sail
I had a down haul on my hank on jib until I replaced it with the CF500. It is a great way to drop the head sail fast as you can pull the line. Gets the sail to the deck fast and pins it to the head stay/deck. Being able to drop the head sail fast reduces the time the sail can trap air on the way down and dump in the water. And you don't have to go forward to handle the head sail.

I plan to use the head stay down haul as a main sail down haul. The new sail cloth is heavy and generates a lot of power. With full battens the sail wants to sail all the time. The moment you are not pointed dead to the wind or the wind shifts on your heading the main starts sailing. The moment the sail starts to load it will not drop under it's own weight even with the boom free to align with the wind and sail slugs. I usually have to go topside to pull it down by hand. The old OEM sail would drop dead to the deck unless I lost my heading to the wind. The moment I turned back to the wind So back to the beginning, the better the sail shape the greater the power. Needless to say I was surprised the first time I headed into the wind to drop the main. The main did what I spent the money for. Improved performance to the wind! Didn't see that one coming. There is enough load on the sail track to keep the main from dropping without having to go top side. Adding the down haul will solve the problem.

Re: Better Pointing into the Wind

Posted: Thu May 16, 2019 7:28 am
by Baha
Neo wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 3:18 am
Ixneigh wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 5:01 pm
They start to give me “the look” at around 20 degrees.
A man after my own heart ... I love to heel 8)
Ah, but, as my first 2 sailing instructors told me.."A flat boat is a fast boat"... :)

Re: Better Pointing into the Wind

Posted: Thu May 16, 2019 12:49 pm
by Neo
Baha wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 7:28 am
Ah, but, as my first 2 sailing instructors told me.."A flat boat is a fast boat"... :)
If I cared about "fast" I would still be driving my boring speedboat 8)

Re: Better Pointing into the Wind

Posted: Sun May 19, 2019 8:46 pm
by 1st Sail
Speaking of fast. The preceding comments are spot on. The ultimate benefit of properly trimmed sails and proper sail shape (if you are so fortunate) is fast. No so much that fast is important you just receive it as a direct benefit from your decision to trim properly. Secondarily less heel for you and your crew thus more comfort. So it not so important that you achieve 'fast'. Just know fast comes for free when you make good choices. You also have the choice to depower and let out some line if you so choose. So it's a win-win.

So Neo I hope you are sailing. Let us know your results.
I am still flooded off the river most likely until June 1. Unfortunately we have lost almost 2 months of sailing.

Re: Better Pointing into the Wind

Posted: Mon May 20, 2019 1:25 am
by Neo
Not sailing yet 1st Sail may be in the next couple of weeks ... Hope your flood waters subside real soon.

Re: Better Pointing into the Wind

Posted: Mon Dec 16, 2019 10:27 pm
by Newell
I just found this discussion and the new site. The X and M are very different in their mast setup. I am particularly interested in hearing if mast rake adjustments are found to make a difference. Do any of you captains see tack angles approaching 45 degrees going hard to wind?

I have never found the X to be a great pointer and know little about the M. The original factory setup for the X, raked the mast back 94 Degrees. Many owners have shortened the forestay bringing the mast closer to vertical and cut down rounding up problems. Has this practice had a negative effect on pointing? I have memory of a former moderator finding angles of 50-54 on a X. I just mesured with hanked on small jib in 5-8 wind and hate to report 62? :x :macx:

Re: Better Pointing into the Wind

Posted: Mon Dec 16, 2019 10:48 pm
by Neo
Neither Macs are great pointers... just great fun :D

The :macm: is a fractional rig without backstay so all stresses and strains are based on a fixed rake angle. Not a clever idea to mess with that for performance sake (which might be half a knot at best) ... Honestly if performance is important to you there are far better Trailer Sailers out there for that. 8)

All the best.
Neo

Re: Better Pointing into the Wind

Posted: Tue Dec 17, 2019 8:42 am
by BOAT
I improved pointing on 'boat' by installing some cars on the cabin track and running my genoa lines to them when beating with about half genoa.
I also hung a block off the base of those stanchions that are near the companionway and ran a line with a hook I could clip to the mainsheet bale as a makeshift preventer but I noticed if I pulled on the line with the winch it allowed me to pull the boom over even further than the traveler could go and helped pointing even more....but I was afraid to use that method for very long because I do not know how strong the stanchions are and wanted to ask Tom about it before I rigged anything up more permanent.

Just playing with things I have found that getting the boom past center helps with pointing. I am still experimenting with the jib cars on the cabin with the genoa - I have not got enough measurements together yet to declare that the loss of speed with a shorter headsail results in making destination faster yet with a higher course. I need to do more experiments. All I can say is that the boat will point a little higher. A longer daggerboard might help too but I don't see any way to do that.

Re: Better Pointing into the Wind

Posted: Tue Dec 17, 2019 9:50 am
by Neo
BOAT wrote:
Tue Dec 17, 2019 8:42 am
I also hung a block off the base of those stanchions that are near the companionway and ran a line with a hook I could clip to the mainsheet bale as a makeshift preventer but I noticed if I pulled on the line with the winch it allowed me to pull the boom over even further than the traveler could go and helped pointing even more....but I was afraid to use that method for very long because I do not know how strong the stanchions are and wanted to ask Tom about it before I rigged anything up more permanent.
Hmmm now this is very interesting :)
I'm guessing that one stanchion (attaching at the base) alone is not really up to the job in higher winds but what about if you had an extendable pole from the other side (stanchion base) to a fixing point near the boom Bail.... Kinda like a whisker pole for the boom :wink:

Or what about attaching a 2nd line (on the same side) from the other (forward) bail to the forward stanchion base too? .... That way the load would be shared (but not evenly) across two stanchion bases.

Either way two stanchion bases together should be strong enough in less than 10knt stable winds..... I would love to give this a try myself :evil:

Re: Better Pointing into the Wind

Posted: Tue Dec 17, 2019 10:02 am
by BOAT
It will work but there is a LOT of poundage on that block - I think tomfoolery could calculate the forces and the strength of the stanchion.

Maybe Highlander might know what to do - he has mounted winches on the gunnells and i think the gunnells might be a better place to put additional blocks for the boom. Perhaps additional bale near the end of the boom and a new line to the gunnells??

I dunno :( - we need some one smart like Tom to figure it out - it requires MATH!

Re: Better Pointing into the Wind

Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2019 9:07 am
by Seapup
I'm guessing that one stanchion (attaching at the base) alone is not really up to the job in higher winds
Thats exactly what I did on the :macx: Just used two mainsheets from stantion bases to a bale in the middle of the boom. Never had issues in heavy winds. Gets the sheets and lines out of the cockpit too. I thought it made a big difference on the :macx: since it does not have a traveler.

Image

There is no comparison with the jib and genny for pointing in my opinion. I still think the :macx: got a bad reputation due to the fact that most were being drug sideways by a new sailor with over sized genoa that gives poor sheeting angles and a main that couldn't be trimmed.