Mac 26M Yawl conversion--any reason not to?

A forum for discussing boat or trailer repairs or modifications that you have made or are considering.

Moderators: Catigale, Paul S, Heath_Mod, beene, Hamin' X, kmclemore, tangentair

User avatar
mastreb
Admiral
Posts: 3944
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2011 12:00 pm
Sailboat: MacGregor 26M
Location: Cardiff by the Sea, CA ETEC-60 "Luna Sea"
Contact:

Mac 26M Yawl conversion--any reason not to?

Post by mastreb » Sun May 19, 2013 7:34 pm

I will be buying a Hobie Tandem Island: http://www.hobiecat.com/mirage/mirage-tandem-island/

to convert to wing sail (a project which is the subject of a different thread). The wing sail prototyping is going along well, so I'm looking to buy the kayak later this summer when I've finished static testing of the wing.

While I'm keeping the original unstayed mast and sail for the Hobie (to be replaced if/when I sell that boat) it occurs to me that I could also use the Hobie sail on the Mac as a Yawl mizzen mast.

Being unstayed, it needs nothing but an appropriate socket to be plugged into and dual mainsheets brought back to the gunnels port and starboard to manage the sail. I've looked into Yawl conversions, and even on large sloops they're pretty trivial. Many sloops were converted to Yawls in the 50's and 60's to take advantage of racing rules that provided them a slight advantage.

The 90 sq. ft. of sail provided by the Tandem Island's sail is slightly high (23%) compared to traditional yawls which are usually less than 20% of the area of the jib+main, but that should be just fine. Furthermore, the sail is roller furling and can be furled to any specific size. On the Hobie, it's managed by a single mainsheet, no vang, and no rigging is used. The mast is 19'.

I'm almost always sailing in light air, so extra sail area would be very helpful. Also the Mac is extremely squirrelly on its track--two seconds with your eyes off the prize and you're already on a different heading. Most people solve that with an autopilot, but in the Bay where I sail there's a lot of traffic so that'll be less useful for me. From what I've read, the primary advantage of a yawl besides extra sail is balanced sailing with a stable track.

The mod would be simple: I'll replace the helm seat entirely with solid wooden seat that has a socket for the Hobie mast integrated into the seat back, including the necessary roller bearing, and that seat-back will be clamped to my port and starboard stern rail seats to stabilize it. When coming in, I'll furl the sail, un-cleat its mainsheets, and remove the mast to be stored below decks on the port settee.

So that's the idea, but I've never sailed a Yawl (or any other multiple mast configuration) so I'd like to get input from people who have about whether or not they think this mod would be worth the effort and provide the intended improvement to tracking?

Johnacuda
Engineer
Posts: 190
Joined: Sun Jul 22, 2012 7:59 pm
Sailboat: MacGregor 26X
Location: Kingston, NY

Re: Mac 26M Yawl conversion--any reason not to?

Post by Johnacuda » Sun May 19, 2013 7:49 pm

I like the idea, and it doesn't seem like a terribly intrusive mod. I thing I read something about Ixneigh running a yawl on one of his boats.

User avatar
Catigale
Site Admin
Posts: 10363
Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2004 7:59 pm
Sailboat: MacGregor 26X
Location: Admiral .............Catigale 2002X.......Lots of Harpoon Hobie 16 Skiffs....Island 17
Contact:

Re: Mac 26M Yawl conversion--any reason not to?

Post by Catigale » Mon May 20, 2013 10:34 am

Cant wait to see this play out on Sailing Anarchy.... :D :D

User avatar
Crikey
Admiral
Posts: 1841
Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2011 2:43 pm
Sailboat: MacGregor 26M
Location: Washago, Muskoka, Ontario, Canada, Earth, Singularity.Suzuki DF60A. Boat name: Crikey!

Re: Mac 26M Yawl conversion--any reason not to?

Post by Crikey » Mon May 20, 2013 5:07 pm

With the extra driver would come a corresponding increase in the amount of sustained heel, unless the existing ballast was increased accordingly. The Mac is too tender for that much square footage. (Unless they were both wings, with much reduced drag)....

User avatar
Rick Westlake
Captain
Posts: 778
Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2007 6:05 pm
Sailboat: MacGregor 26X
Location: Casa Rio Marina, Mayo, MD; MacGregor 26X, "Bossa Nova" - Bristol 29.9 "Halcyon"
Contact:

Re: Mac 26M Yawl conversion--any reason not to?

Post by Rick Westlake » Mon May 20, 2013 6:04 pm

What I want to know is - how are you going to get the mizzenmast out behind the rudders on a 26M? That's what defines a yawl. :?

Or did you mean a ketch conversion? :P

(Oh, never mind. I want to see what Highlander would do. Incidentally, I want to see him step the main aft and the Hobie mast forward, and make a Mac schooner.)

User avatar
Ixneigh
Admiral
Posts: 1906
Joined: Thu Sep 09, 2010 1:00 pm
Sailboat: MacGregor 26M
Location: Key largo Florida

Re: Mac 26M Yawl conversion--any reason not to?

Post by Ixneigh » Mon May 20, 2013 6:45 pm

I did have a small mizzen mast on the v 22.2 but that was with a lugrig mast and sail. I dont think it would be worth while on the M but I did give it some thought. On the 22 the mizzen and sail worked as a dinghy mast as well. Yes the M is squirrly at over five knots. Reefing promptly helps. I doubt the mizzen would fix this issue. You'll only have it up hard on the wind probably anyway.
re ketch vs yawl you are correct in the mast step location as per the rudder head. However I feel a more appropriate definition is sail area. A yawls mizzzen is (usually) half or less the mainmast hight and was intended for steering balance or rule beating. Typically you won't lose much speed without the mizzen up. A ketch on the other hand, derives a good part of her speed from the mizzen and that mast can be of equal hight to the mainmast. You rarely sail without the mizzen up.
This take on the blah vs blah also enables you to say, oh that's a blah at a distance, when you can't see the rudder head. Traditionalists may wish to call me on my view of this oh so salty topic and to them I say...let it go to voice mail.
Ix

User avatar
mastreb
Admiral
Posts: 3944
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2011 12:00 pm
Sailboat: MacGregor 26M
Location: Cardiff by the Sea, CA ETEC-60 "Luna Sea"
Contact:

Re: Mac 26M Yawl conversion--any reason not to?

Post by mastreb » Mon May 20, 2013 7:45 pm

The "rudder post" definition between a yawl and a ketch is a modern (post WWII) attribution designed for rule setters. Traditionally, a Yawl rig was the rig on a Yawl boat traditionally rowed, and a Ketch rig was the rig on a "catch" or fishing boat, designed to keep a boat side to the wind with nobody at the helm.

Ix's definition of a Ketch being about 50/50 between the two masts whereas the mizzen on a Yawl is about 20% is a better definition because you can see the rig from a distance, but not the rudder post.

In any case, I'd be mounting the mizzen step on the back of a beefed up helm seat, directly in line with the rudders, and so it would be a yawl irrespective.

I'm not too worried about the extra sail flying--Yawls typically heel less than sloops, and I'll only be using this when the airs are too light to get to hull speed with a genny and main. It roller reefs, as does the genny, so I'd be able to sheet it in very quickly if something happened.

User avatar
Herschel
Captain
Posts: 812
Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2005 6:22 pm
Sailboat: MacGregor 26X
Location: Orlando, Florida
Contact:

Re: Mac 26M Yawl conversion--any reason not to?

Post by Herschel » Mon May 20, 2013 8:43 pm

I sailed on 44-ft yawls in college mostly on the Chesapeake Bay and the 1964 Bermuda Race. I haven't seen a yawl in many years. I assume, if it was a good idea, we would see more of them. I suspect that the previous comment about the advantage that might have been gained in corrected time computations might have been the impetus for the design in the first place. The only two actual advantages of which I was aware when I was serving aboard them were the assistance the mizzen gave when at anchor in keeping the bow into the wind and occasionally in heavy weather, we would lower the main completely and run with the mizzen and the #3 Genny. Sometimes in light air we would hoist a mizzen stay sail when on a broad reach. But, I have to admit, it was "cool" to sail a boat with more than one mast. Since ours was wooden and did not have an engine, I feel like I really did get to go to sea when the "ships were wood and the men were iron"! On a more serious note, I would wonder how the Hobie sail, as a mizzen, would impact the overall balance of the rig. Wouldn't it give it a bit more of a weather helm? :?

User avatar
mastreb
Admiral
Posts: 3944
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2011 12:00 pm
Sailboat: MacGregor 26M
Location: Cardiff by the Sea, CA ETEC-60 "Luna Sea"
Contact:

Re: Mac 26M Yawl conversion--any reason not to?

Post by mastreb » Mon May 20, 2013 9:19 pm

It very well have more weather helm as a yawl. Yawl's typically have a few percent less "lead" from CE to CLR compared to sloops because the multiple sails provide more inherent balance. That said, the Hobie sail is a bit oversize for a yawl mizzin sail, and may have to be reefed to provide the intended effect.

The helm on my boat is very neutral, especially in light airs. In a big puff it will round up as it should, but she does wander if you take your hand off the helm at any time and could probably do with a bit more weather helm than she has. I know that can all be taken care of with rig tension, which I've not yet bothered to do as my tension still seems good and I've not yet purchased a loos gauge. I'm actually hoping to meet up with someone who has one to test my rig tension at the MUCK-about.

I'm trying to think of really simple ways to do this mod, simply because I'm going to have this mast and sail anyway, and I'd like to test the idea. I've got a lot of blocks and cleats I can put on the gunnel tracks to control it, so I really only need a simple way to mount the mast on the stern that isn't going to break anything in order to test. But if you guys are saying there's little point in bothering (i.e., the boat's not going to track better on its own or perform any better in light air) then I won't bother.

User avatar
Divecoz
Admiral
Posts: 3789
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 4:54 pm
Sailboat: MacGregor 26M
Location: PORT CHARLOTTE FLORIDA 05 M Mercury 50 H.P. Big Foot Bill at Boats 4 Sail is my Hero

Re: Mac 26M Yawl conversion--any reason not to?

Post by Divecoz » Mon May 20, 2013 10:20 pm

Hahahahahah OMG!!!
Catigale wrote:Cant wait to see this play out on Sailing Anarchy.... :D :D

User avatar
Catigale
Site Admin
Posts: 10363
Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2004 7:59 pm
Sailboat: MacGregor 26X
Location: Admiral .............Catigale 2002X.......Lots of Harpoon Hobie 16 Skiffs....Island 17
Contact:

Re: Mac 26M Yawl conversion--any reason not to?

Post by Catigale » Tue May 21, 2013 12:49 pm

Actually the name came from the Civil war when ketches were warships provided to the Confederacy by the British

User avatar
mastreb
Admiral
Posts: 3944
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2011 12:00 pm
Sailboat: MacGregor 26M
Location: Cardiff by the Sea, CA ETEC-60 "Luna Sea"
Contact:

Re: Mac 26M Yawl conversion--any reason not to?

Post by mastreb » Tue May 21, 2013 3:19 pm

Catigale wrote:Actually the name came from the Civil war when ketches were warships provided to the Confederacy by the British
Hi Stephen, my understanding (and the dictionary's) is that the word is from the middle english and substantially older in origin, but that it came to American English as you indicate.

User avatar
Highlander
Admiral
Posts: 5300
Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2005 10:25 pm
Sailboat: MacGregor 26M
Location: Maccutter26M 2008 75HP Merc. 4/S Victoria BC. Can. ' An Hileanto'ir III '
Contact:

Re: Mac 26M Yawl conversion--any reason not to?

Post by Highlander » Tue May 21, 2013 5:45 pm

This has been done before I posted a pic a few yrs back about a guy up in Lake Superior who done this mod to his 26S/D , he shorted the main mast & rigging & changed the main sail
here we r I found it again
Image

J 8)

User avatar
Herschel
Captain
Posts: 812
Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2005 6:22 pm
Sailboat: MacGregor 26X
Location: Orlando, Florida
Contact:

Re: Mac 26M Yawl conversion--any reason not to?

Post by Herschel » Tue May 21, 2013 8:53 pm

The idea of shortening the main mast given in the last comment suggests that, if you go ahead with the test, it might be interesting to start with a reefed main and the full Hobie "mizzen" and see what that feels like in terms of balance, perhaps even adding a reefing point less (i.e., lower) that the standard ones that come on the sail. As to rigging the mizzen itself, ours had a regular boom that extended out over the stern about a foot, but its sheet ran to block and tackle on the fantail. The waterline in the stern was a good 2-3 feet forward of the aft deck and railing so there was room with which to work a mizzen. The lack of a boom in this application might be a disadvantage given the dimensions of the MacGregor stern configuration. A "bridge" of some sort might be needed to have room to work the mizzen.

Johnacuda
Engineer
Posts: 190
Joined: Sun Jul 22, 2012 7:59 pm
Sailboat: MacGregor 26X
Location: Kingston, NY

Re: Mac 26M Yawl conversion--any reason not to?

Post by Johnacuda » Tue May 21, 2013 10:34 pm

Highlander wrote:This has been done before I posted a pic a few yrs back about a guy up in Lake Superior who done this mod to his 26S/D , he shorted the main mast & rigging & changed the main sail
here we r I found it again
Image

J 8)
Is this who Highlander calls Yoda? :D

Post Reply