Mast-reb-uild

A forum for discussing boat or trailer repairs or modifications that you have made or are considering.
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RobertB
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Re: Mast-reb-uild

Post by RobertB »

Matt, what did you do at the spreader tips? Did you have to change out the stock fittings since these seemed designed for wire rope?
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mastreb
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Re: Mast-reb-uild

Post by mastreb »

Wayne nicol wrote:Hi Matt- looking very very pro!!
do tell a little bit more about the bedding he did at the contact points with the stainless- seems like something we should all do with our rigs!!
cheers
wayne
For hounds, all he did was remove the fitting, slather it with tef gel, and then use Loc-Tite for all the bolts at their contact points. Then wipe everything off that squeezes out once it's finally assembled.

He also backed bolts into the mast (he bolted the halyard turning block) with plastic washers.

For the Norseman Headstay swage fitting, he filled it to overflowing with 4200 and let that squeeze out as he tightened it down, then wiped off. This completely seals the interior of the fitting such that no water or oxygen will ever intrude, and thus any corrosion that occurs will happen below the fitting on the wire and not inside it.

Anyway, he rather insisted on spending the 30 minutes it took to do it, and I'm glad he did.
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mastreb
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Re: Mast-reb-uild

Post by mastreb »

RobertB wrote:Matt, what did you do at the spreader tips? Did you have to change out the stock fittings since these seemed designed for wire rope?
He decided to use the stock fittings made for wire, but drilled them out for the dyneema and filed them smooth and a little rounded at the edges. This worked very well. He also made a point of telling me that he was tightening only to the point that they don't move normally, but could be forced to move. He said he wanted the first thing to slip to be the spreader tip if something went wrong. I don't have a torque rating for you, but I'd say "hand tight" was about it.

There are two reasons we went "over-rated" on the size of the dyneema, with 4mm being the actual matching size for our stays.

The first reason is that with the bends around thimbles on the splice we're a little bit under the allowed turning radius for the diameter of rope, which means that it loses about 20% of its strength. I made the decision to do this and go with standard thimbles rather than the very expensive made-to-purpose plastic collego turning thimbles because I eventually want to learn to do these splices myself and keep some thimbles and rope on board for injury rigging. One of my big reasons to go to dyneema is the ability to do injury rigging. For example, with a severed stay I can put two figure-8 knots in both sides and lash the two knots together using many turns of a finer dyneema rope, using those turns to get correct tension. That'll get you home when with stainless, you're done. Also corrosion was beginning to rear its ugly head at the swages, and that's just not a concern at all with dyneema.

The second reason for going over-size is that dyneema is about the most UV resistant of any plastic--it's surface layer degrades and then the UV stops penetrating. This will over time eliminate about 1mm "worth" of diameter, resulting in shrouds that will eventually be rated equal to 4mm.

Anyway, I'm very happy with how they've turned out--they look great and the only thing I need to worry about is creep, which is pretty easy to take care of.
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Crikey
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Re: Mast-reb-uild

Post by Crikey »

Matt, just got my new mast blank two days ago and am now in the process of measuring the other hole locations for swapping the fittings over. I'm buying one of those drill-press thingies for my handheld 1/2" in order to do the holes as my new extrusion only had one pre-done where the raiser fitting is located. Bummer!
Any comments you could provide concerning this process would be appreciated. Also, the delivery dude told me to try using acetone for a pour through on the slot side, in order to dissolve the foam packing near the area where the wires are pulled through. Do you think this will work? I'm really not looking forward to repeating the core-drill method.

R.
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mastreb
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Re: Mast-reb-uild

Post by mastreb »

Crikey wrote:Matt, just got my new mast blank two days ago and am now in the process of measuring the other hole locations for swapping the fittings over. I'm buying one of those drill-press thingies for my handheld 1/2" in order to do the holes as my new extrusion only had one pre-done where the raiser fitting is located. Bummer!
Any comments you could provide concerning this process would be appreciated. Also, the delivery dude told me to try using acetone for a pour through on the slot side, in order to dissolve the foam packing near the area where the wires are pulled through. Do you think this will work? I'm really not looking forward to repeating the core-drill method.

R.
Alas, I don't have a lot to tell you about measurements because all my necessary holes were pre-drilled, so swapping my hardware over only took about an hour--Except the mast light, which I haven't installed won't be installing. Instead I'll be running a high-power LED light up on a block the few times its necessary for me, since I've only needed the mast light a total of maybe 20 days on the boat thus far. I've always really disliked the installed wire mast light these boats come with.

But I were I to do it, I would just use a 25' fish tape inserted at the mast light hole, fished down to the bottom of the mast, pull a pull-string back up and out the mast light hole, and then use the pull string to pull the mast light wire down to the foot. That's how a cabler or electrician would do it.
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mastreb
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Re: Mast-reb-uild

Post by mastreb »

So I'm having a problem with these Harken Batt Cars that I need to address with the mfr: Namely, the ball bearings aren't by any means "captive".

They're held in place by a thin wire, and when installing the cars on the track, as carefully as I possibly could, that wire would move and they all still spilled a few little tiny BB sized bearings as they slid onto the track, one of them enough that it's not functioning as a bearing. Catching bouncing 3mm plastic bearings on deck when you're trying to install a sail is an exercise in futility.

Once on the track, everything works fine and I was able to both raise and lower the sail in extremely high beam winds even backed hard against the spreaders and stays. So the promise of the track does work.

It's extremely frustrating, because I'm quite a careful person and I'm certain there's nothing that I can do to be more delicate about the installation of these cars. Furthermore, they need to be robust enough to be handled at sea in chop, which they most certainly are not.

Because this is a trailerable boat, my sail comes on and off the mast all the time, and these cars have to be able to be loaded and unload on the track routinely either without spilling bearings or I need to have a lifetime supply of replacement bearings aboard (which, while annoying, is almost certainly going to be the first solution).

Our boats could probably get by using only the sliders like slugs, but I'm going to call Harken when I get a change and break them off a big chunk of my mind about the use of the term "captive bearing". $1700 is a bit too much to invest in something with that serious of a flaw. I know that larger captive bearing cars work fine because I've seen them work; I think these cars are just scaled down so small that the wire isn't strong enough to resist any kind of pressure at all.

Otherwise, you'll be happy to know that everything else including my homemade carbon boom seems like it will work well. I'll post pictures once I'm able to get it onto the water and actually tested.
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mastreb
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Re: Mast-reb-uild

Post by mastreb »

Because Luna Sea is going up for sale, I decided to not to inflict the new owner with my sliding carbon boom and have attached the stock gooseneck and boom. Everything is working well, and I'll post pictures shortly.
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Re: Mast-reb-uild

Post by RGF »

That's a shame, mastreb, I was really looking forward to seeing the final results, but I certainly understand.
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mastreb
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Re: Mast-reb-uild

Post by mastreb »

So everything is done and working well with the re-rig, so I thought I'd post a summary:

1) Carbon spreaders: Very simple, inexpensive mod. Just purchase carbon tubes of the same ID and OD as the stock aluminum from a supplier that will cut to length, and have them cut to 44". It was simple to drill them for the mast receiver and the spreader tips. No more bent spreaders.

2) Dyneema stays: Super happy with this. Much simpler to tie off when lowering the mast, no issues thus far. Softer on the hands when going forward. No issues with creep as yet, but since the creep is in the direction of "more taught" rather than less, I doubt it'll ever really be an issue.

3) Harken Batt-car system: Do not bother. It's expensive, its not much better than good slugs when it works, and it doesn't work. The captive bearings just aren't: You lose some literally every time you load the cars on the track because the tiny bearings jam at the top of their track, putting pressure on the captive wire which then moves and allows bearings to come spilling out. The only way to use it is to have a lot of spare bearings to re-load with. Harken has failed to respond to my two emails to their support address about the issue, and I'll be calling them to have them send a box of spare bearings.

To make the system usable for the next owner, I'll replace the bearing cars with the plastic slide cars that have no bearings, making it literally no better than slugs but at least completely functional and not a pain in the ass.

I don't think any captive bearing system should be used on masts that are stepped frequently. This basically means my idea for having separate rigs that can be changed out on the track isn't going to work in that form.

You win some, you less win others.
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Re: Mast-reb-uild

Post by Wayne nicol »

been meaning to ask Matt, what did you do for your forestay, did you stay with wire, and if so , did you upgrade to a heavier ga.
sorry might have missed it in your original post- should go back and re read.
if you stayed with wire, where did you get it from?
what did your entire dyneema re rig cost you?
i need a new forestay , want to go heavier and a few inches shorter to accommodate my new bow roller

cheers mate
wayne
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mastreb
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Re: Mast-reb-uild

Post by mastreb »

Hi Wayne,

I did upgrade it to 3/16ths to match as closely as possible the strength of the dyneema spreaders. I didn't want side spreaders substantially stronger than the forestay, which could cause the forestay to preferentially break (say, if you were to tweak a channel marker). I also had the head fitting changed to a pressure norseman fitting that is much stronger than the stock swaged loop. I unfortunately did not have enough length available to accommodate a proper swivel.

The total cost including the upgraded forestay, all the materials and fiddly bits, and the labor to build the stays, install them, and re-bed the stainless parts on the mast came to a total of $1700. Well worth it I thought.

My rigger can make the stays from my measurements for anyone who wants them by the way and ship them to you. I told him that would be a likelihood. If you'd like I'll get a quote for just having them made and shipped.

Matt
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Re: Mast-reb-uild

Post by Wayne nicol »

thgat would be awesome Matt, am rather tired of the steel shrouds!
where did you get the forestay from- BWY?
cheers mate
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mastreb
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Re: Mast-reb-uild

Post by mastreb »

Hi Wayne,

The rigger made it from his stock. I'll contact him re: pricing for the dyneema shrouds. He can likely make the upgraded forestay as well.

Matt
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Re: Mast-reb-uild

Post by Wayne nicol »

Awesome, thanks bud
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mastreb
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Re: Mast-reb-uild

Post by mastreb »

Catigale wrote:
Me: "Mast accidents are really very rare though."
Admiral: "Well you've had two in three years."
Me: let's watch Sharknado....
http://money.cnn.com/2014/07/31/media/s ... d=HP_River
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