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Installing a Ray Marine Tiller Pilot below decks

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Re: Installing a Ray Marine Tiller Pilot below decks

Postby BOAT » Sun Sep 11, 2016 9:20 pm

Correct, it just works harder - the problem with the short arm is the course alarms and back-feed senders - the unit needs some space to operate properly - when the back-feed force reaches a set value the machine is programmed to think it's being overpowered by the helm. If this happens often it will relinquish helm to the wheel and drop out and fire it's course alarm.

The idea is to give the unit as much power against the rudders as possible. With the longer arm that I used it's actually hard to overpower the unit - it's got a lot of power at that tiller arm length and when the unit is in standby it takes a lot of force on the wheel to steer.

If you have the tiller arm short like 12 inches (like the stock steering rod placement is), then it's much easier to overpower the piston because you have more leverage over it.

I think it probably works just fine at 12 inches, but I really don't know because I have not tried it - I know that at the 14 inch length it has been flawless. I have never had a drop or stall.
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Re: Installing a Ray Marine Tiller Pilot below decks

Postby RobertB » Sun Sep 11, 2016 10:26 pm

kurz wrote:I just do not understand why the ev 100 tiller pilot does have the 14 inch mount restriction an a Mac26.
Raymarine sell it for yachts up to 6 tons and 11 meter lengths. So this 3 time more than we have on the mac. Why not mount it shorter to the rudder arm and have full range for steering?

I just checked befor: You can turn the rudder arm below deck even with the motor on without any force just with your hands, so maybe some kg, maybe 5kg. Raymarine givs 84kg power.

The ev 100 anyway would not "realize" how long the rudder arm is but just would work a little harder. Am I wrong?


I too worked with RayMarine tech support before installing the tiller version below decks. I explain it in great detail in my previous description of the installation but the short story is that the unit works fine mounted to the rudder crossbar. The throw is adequate and the unit has plenty of power with the shorter lever arm because our rudders have a very short chord. There is not a 14 inch restriction, that is only what RayMarine recommends as a one size fits all considering different rudder sizes. At the wheel, it is easy to operate with the unit in standby.
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Re: Installing a Ray Marine Tiller Pilot below decks

Postby kurz » Mon Sep 12, 2016 1:54 am

Ok, thanks.
I think the only situation when you have biger loads ist when you have the outbord connected.
I never had a real force during sailing without the motor on.

the "biggest" force I notice at the helm was when you START to turn the wheel when the motor ist connected. Even 1 second later it works easy. Since I greased the steering bar the goes through the hull in the motor well its even better.
As I operate often with outboar hooked on I wish that the system will have no problem.
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Re: Installing a Ray Marine Tiller Pilot below decks

Postby BOAT » Mon Sep 12, 2016 10:10 am

kurz wrote:Ok, thanks.
I think the only situation when you have biger loads ist when you have the outbord connected.
I never had a real force during sailing without the motor on. . .

Or in a following sea, (something I experience every time I come home into my home harbor) and the waves are crashing into the back of the boat.

The outboard does indeed put a lot of weight on the steering if it's connected to the rudders AND also tilted out of the water - that's a position I have not tested yet - really, the only time I ever connect the motor to the rudders is when the rudders are out of the water (that's just me) and that is really rare because I seldom travel over 6 knots even with the motor so most the time the outboard is just strapped down to the boat disconnected from the rudders - even when I am motoring out of the marina the motor is not turning - it just points straight and the rudders do all the steering in the water. (Should I be using the motor to turn the boat as such slow speeds? The rudders are already down there so what's the deal?) I might be doing it wrong. :? On our old boats the outboard just sat there - it did not "turn" - we used the rudder to turn - I guess I got used to that. The only time I connect the motor to the turning part of the system is when I have all blades up and I am going really fast like 10 or 20 miles per hour. :?

i just dunno kurz - you probably know more about this motor boat stuff than I do - and you probably know more about mechanical pistons and tie rods and steering things too - all I can do is what the raymarine guy told me to do. He could very well be wrong about stuff. He seemed worried about a lot of sudden "resistance thrust" confusing the system. (Whatever that means).
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Re: Installing a Ray Marine Tiller Pilot below decks

Postby RobertB » Mon Sep 12, 2016 11:30 am

When the EV-100 system encounters a situation where it is not able to control the heading of the boat, it will stop trying and go offline. Extreme situation require operator control.
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Re: Installing a Ray Marine Tiller Pilot below decks

Postby BOAT » Mon Sep 12, 2016 11:40 am

RobertB wrote:When the EV-100 system encounters a situation where it is not able to control the heading of the boat, it will stop trying and go offline. Extreme situation require operator control.


Yes, this is correct, and it is also why I want to give the AP as much leverage as i can give it to operate the rudders. The system is designed to operate on a tiller 14 or more inches away from the rudder - at that point it has good leverage against all kinds of pressures it should encounter so it does not drop out just because a wave hit the back of the boat, but it will still allow the helm to take over. It's actual best performance is closer to 16 inches from the rudder according to ray marine - but if I extended my rudder arm that far it would no longer fit nicely behind the barrier between the bed and the steering linkage. Even I made some compromises, but only within the specifications of the unit.

I was afraid to compromise on the specs because I am a fraidy cat. :cry:
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Re: Installing a Ray Marine Tiller Pilot below decks

Postby RobertB » Mon Sep 12, 2016 2:10 pm

I approached this as an engineer discussing technical capabilities with the manufacturer. In my professional opinion I cannot find any justification to set this up with a longer lever arm than the Mac stock steering linkage provides. As I discussed with RayMarine, the 14 inch lever arm is just a one size fits all starting point, not the most appropriate for the Mac - the fact the Mac has short chord rudders makes it overkill. The outboard is a fairly light weight one and not an issue either. Really, this was a core issue in my decision to install the system. The issues I encountered where the system could not hold the desired heading had nothing to do with the actuator being overpowered but how the boat was rigged - the AP system could put the rudders hard over. Have you found a case where you overpowered the actuator?
Other issues:
- The longer the lever arm, the more the total travel of the actuator may become a limiting factor. The stock steering linkage is a good match here. Yes, I did measure the rudder linkage travel and compare it to the travel of the actuator. It was a good match.
- If left in place, the slightly shorter lever arm is easier to deal with manually steering while the AP is in standby but attached (I can not support for safety reasons a steering system that requires several steps to engage, especially one that requires the steering angle to be adjusted to do so - thus the need to easily steer with an attached actuator)
- To rig with a longer steering linkage forces the system to be installed outside the physical envelope of the boat's steering compartment. That means potentially equipment/gear on the rear berth interfering with the system since you cannot have the cover in place. This is a safety issue.

And - this is important, I really do not drink Gin and Vodka, I just had the opportunity to try some neat stuff. I am for the most part a beer person, just not the Lite stuff.
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Re: Installing a Ray Marine Tiller Pilot below decks

Postby kurz » Sun Nov 06, 2016 7:07 am

BOAT wrote:Image


Hi BOAT
Now I have all the ev100 parts at home and already did some work :)

Question: Is the actuator (see pic) thoughbolted to the motor well or did you use woodscrew to that just the inner liner is holding the AP (I think the inner structure is strong engough, just to ask).

AND: Do you have some more pics how you mounted the sensor and computer inside the boat?

And how you endet with the control line outside the cockpit?

Thanks!!! Cannot wait to install all and have a test ride. BUT... still takes some work first.

Do you have enough space in the steering for both the motor display AND the AP display?

THANKS!!!

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Re: Installing a Ray Marine Tiller Pilot below decks

Postby BOAT » Mon Nov 07, 2016 9:51 am

The mount is screwed through the liner only using wood screws. The liner is strong there.

I have ALL my electronics in the same compartment under the aft dinette seat - the pilot, charger, sensor, brains, backbone, AC outlets, main trunk, DC block, sonar transducer - you name it - it's ALL under one hatch.
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Re: Installing a Ray Marine Tiller Pilot below decks

Postby Estate Sail » Mon Nov 07, 2016 11:10 am

Boat and others that have done this. This is my Mac winter project and I have a few questions. With the sensor in an area with other electrical components, have you noticed any electrical/magnetic interference? Also I am looking for ideas on mounting the control head on or near the pedestal.
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Re: Installing a Ray Marine Tiller Pilot below decks

Postby BOAT » Mon Nov 07, 2016 12:13 pm

Image

The block is wood - is slides up between the liner and the well - there is no need to drill into the well, just drill the liner only and screw into the wood block with big stubby screws and I recommend a metal plate over the liner to protect it from cracking.

I have the compass/axis/gps sensor mounted to the inner forward wall of the rear dinette seat - I will try to get a picture later - the electronics are all in there - even a separate fuse panel for the pilot and the backbone power. I did it that way so the AP would still have it's own power supply even if the main power system went down - the AP and all it's components has it's own power and protection panel.

There is no interference points on our boats - I had the boat scoped a long time ago - the olms measured was insignificant - there is more interference from other structures and other boats out side of the sailboat then there are right next to the charger even when connected to AC (which is never going to happen under way). The charger is the only thing that can put out enough inductance to even measure and it's not going to be working at sea because there is no AC out in the ocean. You guys with Solar panels and Inverters are not included - your inverters put out a huge amount of interference depending on how good the inverter is. I don't have any inverters on board. I'm all DC power and my AC is on shore power only and I don't use the AP at the slip. (Any of you using an auto pilot at the slip have issues - get help).

The only two items making induction waves are the motor and your radio when you transmit. I even have a wireless network on board and it has no effect on the electronic gyro.

Also, the pilot sensor works on TRUE compass or MAGNETIC compass - you have a choice - I run TRUE by default because our weather here almost never disrupts the GPS but the RayMarine EV-100 has a flux magnetic compass and you can run on MAGNETIC compass - (that means the AP works even if all the GPS satellites get shot down by the terrorists - your AP will still work by the magnetic poles of the earth). If the entire world is destroyed then the AP won't work and you will need to use celestial navigation to plot a course, and then steer the boat based on the stars and the sun and the moon. I know how to do that too and I have a sextant so I think I'm covered. Interference is not an issue to me.
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Re: Installing a Ray Marine Tiller Pilot below decks

Postby kurz » Sun Mar 05, 2017 3:37 pm

Hi BOAT

I today had a first try with the ev-100 tiller mounted in your stile :)

Soon I will install the remote with the line going outside the cockpit near the rudder cleat.

So my question: Below you can see the line going into a tube. Will this tube go up?

If the tube will go up completely there will be a very small place to drill the hole outside.

Or do I worry to much and can drill the hole just somewhere near the line from the rudder?

Thanks!
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Re: Installing a Ray Marine Tiller Pilot below decks

Postby BOAT » Sun Mar 05, 2017 4:32 pm

There is a tube and you want to make sure you drill your hole inside of the tube so that if any water goes down the hole it will be restricted to the tube and directed to the drain that is below the tube. I drilled the hole fairly close to the hole where the rudder rope comes out - I will try to get you a measurement - the boat is covered - I will try to go out there and get a measurement later.
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Re: Installing a Ray Marine Tiller Pilot below decks

Postby BOAT » Mon Mar 06, 2017 12:56 pm

Okay kurz - here is a picture of the hole - (it was raining last night so I could not get the picture till this morning).

Image

I drilled the hole pretty close to the existing hole and smaller because I use a smaller line for the Pilot Control Line.

Take a coat hanger and probe the inside of the original hole to make sure you can feel where the pipe is inside of there - I was able to get a general idea of the location of the pipe and it's dimensions using a bent coat hanger as a feeler guide and I drew a circle on the gel coat with a pencil to represent where the pipe was under there before I drilled the hole. The pencil marks are long gone now - but it may be different for every boat?
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Re: Installing a Ray Marine Tiller Pilot below decks

Postby kurz » Tue Mar 07, 2017 2:31 am

thanks man!!!!
Especially the idea with the coat hanger :D
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