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How to Install a larger 90+ HP Motor

A forum for discussing topics relating to MacGregor Powersailor Sailboats

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How to Install a larger 90+ HP Motor

Postby davidbourne » Tue Feb 14, 2012 10:01 pm

Hey there,

After several months of lurking, then several more of joining this site and asking questions, I've finally purchased a 26M.

She sat on the lot at Strictly Sail in Cincinnati for 3 years, so I got a new, older model 2009 at a good price.

I highly recommend the guys at Strictly Sail, by the way. They answered a lot of my questions and did a great job of rigging the boat for my 500+ mile journey home. I will continue to buy from them. They are Macgregor dealers and have been in the biz for 34 years.

So, I'm ready to install an outboard. In fact, I 'd like to make a video about it (I make videos for a living) since it seems like a pretty big deal if you have never done it. (And I never have.) Perhaps I can help some other folks out, like you all have helped me.

I'm wanting either a DF90 Suzuki or a DF115.

A few ideas that I've gathered from this site:

Motor Size:
- I can’t have a dealer install the motor because it's beyond Macgregor's accepted rating.
http://www.macgregor26.com/powering_and ... wering.htm
- lots of folks install larger motors than 60 HPs, with no problems
- dealers commonly recommend and install 70s, despite Macgregor's advice on the website
- 90 HPs on 26Ms are common, and I've seen at least one 100HP, and even a 140 on a 26X.
- an outboard dealer might be willing to do a final inspection of the installation.

Motor installation:
- I will need to rent a hoist to hold the engine up
- I might need an (inside) transom reinforcement plate for the larger motors.
- I will need a transom wedge between the motor and the transom, but I don't know what size (5 degree angle?) or material, I assume plastic lasts longer than metal in salt water.
- I need to line up the cavitation plate with the bottom of the boat
- Blue Water Yachts has an add-on steering bar part that allows you to disconnect the motor more easily
http://bwyachts.com/web%20catalog%20312 ... eering.htm
- I should leave room for a larger steering wheel upgrade when mounting the controls on the pedestal

Helm Problems:
- I won't be able to raise the motor up all the way if the helm seat is down. The larger motor is too big.
- I can either 1) raise the helm somehow, 2) adjust the trim control so it stops before hitting the seat, or 3) put rubber bumpers on the motor or seat to prevent scratches

Misc:
- I have no clue about the controls or fuel lines. 14 ft cables?
- how long does an installation take?
- I might want to use a jack plate to give the motor more clearance in the motor well. This will put the weight farther back which will effect sailing and motoring. As far as I know, no one on this site has installed a jack plate on a 26M. But I've seen them on a 19 and a 26X, and the owners like them.
- If I install a jack plate, I will have to figure out an extension to disconnect the motor, similar to the Blue Water Yachts steering bar add on.

I know I'm missing some things, for sure. I'm hoping to help 26X owners as well as 26M folks with the info I gather.

Can anyone add ideas to the list?

Thanks!

David
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Re: How to Install a larger 90+ HP Motor

Postby Highlander » Tue Feb 14, 2012 10:26 pm

Man Gez getter done !! :) :P

J 8)
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Re: How to Install a larger 90+ HP Motor

Postby davidbourne » Tue Feb 14, 2012 11:01 pm

That's the plan, Highlander. Why do you want a jack plate on your M?
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Re: How to Install a larger 90+ HP Motor

Postby Terry » Tue Feb 14, 2012 11:13 pm

davidbourne wrote:Motor Size:
- I can’t have a dealer install the motor because it's beyond Macgregor's accepted rating.
http://www.macgregor26.com/powering_and ... wering.htm
- lots of folks install larger motors than 60 HPs, with no problems
- dealers commonly recommend and install 70s, despite Macgregor's advice on the website
- 90 HPs on 26Ms are common, and I've seen at least one 100HP, and even a 140 on a 26X.
- an outboard dealer might be willing to do a final inspection of the installation.
David

I think that is a crock of bull about dealer install. If they want to make a sale then best make the customer happy or lose the sale! :P
I notice on their site with the link you supplied that all wording used for the 50hp max is now used for the 60hp max with only the number 6 replacing the number 5, same old reasons too... :?
I look forward to your video and will use it to aid the dealer who sells me a bigger engine when the time comes, for now I will make do with the anemic Honda BF50 I have until it dies.
Not sure if or how much transom reinforcement is required but maybe a 1/4 inch sheet of carbon fiber or kevlar on each side of the engine well would do the trick.
So, "on with the show this is it"
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Re: How to Install a larger 90+ HP Motor

Postby Highlander » Tue Feb 14, 2012 11:54 pm

davidbourne wrote:That's the plan, Highlander. Why do you want a jack plate on your M?


So as I can get that monster outa the water all the way while sailing & still be able to leave the helms seat down or its either that or do a seat mod

Just a note their is a small gap between the transome & the motor well. I know their is on mine & when I ever have the eng. off I will correct that by filling that gap with something for extra stiffeness it will be something that will not rot I would not use any form of wood as a re-enforcement in the transome area it will eventualy rot from humidity or from being treated every once in awhile with bleach products to prevent mildew I have some 1/2" x 12" wide recycled plastic that is designed for commercial use I'd use it single or doubled up where necc. Then use 1/4" X 6" ALUM flat bar or wider over it on the inside & I already have a 1/4 " X 6" Alum plate on the motor well on the outside

J 8)
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Re: How to Install a larger 90+ HP Motor

Postby vkmaynard » Wed Feb 15, 2012 9:28 am

David,

Contact me if you are serious about the install. We live right off HY 64 in Apex about 4 hours from you. We are 30 min from the dealer we bought our Suzuki for the lowest cost on the East Coast, Chatlee Boats (http://www.chatleeboats.com/). They will sell you a crate motor with a full warranty. They are one of the largest Suzuki dealers in the US.

We have the tools and engine hoist needed to self-install your motor. We self-installed our motor and installed our Honda 50 on a friend's boat in our cul-de-sac. I can help you pick up the motor.

We are very busy but would be willing to help. Billy said he would also help if he has time.

The DF90A has a significantly smaller cowling than the DF100/115/140. It is a better fit for the smaller transom.

Take a ride on our DF90A 26X if you want. I will be on Jordan lake this weekend testing.

Billy Penny lives in Cary/Apex. He has an ETech 90 on his M. He may also be willing to give you a ride on Jordan Lake.

Victor

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Re: How to Install a larger 90+ HP Motor

Postby Crikey » Wed Feb 15, 2012 9:59 am

David, go with Victor's offer - you can't beat that! :)

(You're a good man Charlie Brown :!: ) :wink:
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Re: How to Install a larger 90+ HP Motor

Postby aya16 » Wed Feb 15, 2012 4:25 pm

Thats not true about a dealer install, had my 115 installed by a dealer, not a problem.
I would be careful with the larger heavier 4 strokes. e tec 90 would be something to look into, weight and power is great. The heavy 4 strokes will have less power than the lighter 2 strokes, so power to weight will come into play. The big 4 strokes are just that massive. If I would have known my optimax was as large (bulk not weight) as it was I would have gone with e tec.

Reinforce the transom for your own peace of mind, Why would a wedge be needed? the motors do a negative down side trim on their own.
Good luck, like to see the video.
Mike
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Re: How to Install a larger 90+ HP Motor

Postby davidbourne » Wed Feb 15, 2012 9:18 pm

Victor,

That's a very generous offer and I may have to take you up on it! Maybe we can work something out so it fits into your schedule. Mine is pretty flexible right now.

I inquired with Chatlee already and they said they won't ship, so if the price is right, I was going make the drive anyway. I've sent out several messages to other dealers and Chatlee is the only one who' s gotten back to me, amazingly.

Mike, you are the first I've heard to say a dealer would do an install, so I'm going to start calling tomorrow to make sure they will not.

On the other hand, Victor, Billy and Billy Penny probably have a lot more experience installing on Macs than most outboard dealers.

I'm excited now! I used to love to take the dog to Jordan Lake, so maybe it will be my maiden voyage.

Best,

DB
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Re: How to Install a larger 90+ HP Motor

Postby davidbourne » Wed Feb 15, 2012 9:59 pm

aya16 wrote:Thats not true about a dealer install, had my 115 installed by a dealer, not a problem.
I would be careful with the larger heavier 4 strokes. e tec 90 would be something to look into, weight and power is great. The heavy 4 strokes will have less power than the lighter 2 strokes, so power to weight will come into play. The big 4 strokes are just that massive. If I would have known my optimax was as large (bulk not weight) as it was I would have gone with e tec.


Here are some outboard numbers that I'm looking at:

The Suzuki 90 is 21 lb greater than the Etec 90
The Suzuki has 1502 cc displacement and the Etec has 1296
The Suzuki has 27 amp output and the Etec has 25
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Re: How to Install a larger 90+ HP Motor

Postby vkmaynard » Thu Feb 16, 2012 11:06 am

aya16 wrote:The heavy 4 strokes will have less power than the lighter 2 strokes, so power to weight will come into play.


Please explain? Horsepower and torque are standard ratings.

Victor
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Re: How to Install a larger 90+ HP Motor

Postby Seapup » Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:50 pm

David congrats on the new boat, sounds like it was worth the search and long trip to get what you wanted. Your posts seem to be right on track, not sure from looking over them if you have any specific questions still or have them all answered.

Mike, you are the first I've heard to say a dealer would do an install, so I'm going to start calling tomorrow to make sure they will not.


I am getting my used motor from a dealer, he is full time suzuki mechanic but small working out of a warehouse vs a showroom. He has no problem with the motor going on the X and is hanging it for me. I am doing the rest to save some money.

The big 4 strokes are just that massive. If I would have known my optimax was as large (bulk not weight) as it was I would have gone with e tec.


This seems a bit of a newer vs older issue for all but the mercs which are still physically huge. The newer honda, yamaha, and suzukis are all much smaller than the first generation. I was at a boat show last weekend where they had all the brands and the new 90s were all similiar except for the mercs. There is a size/weight jump into the 115s since they are a larger block.

Its their ad but suzuki has the weights and comparisons between all the current 4 strokes on their website

http://www.suzukimarine.com/Product%20Lines/Outboard%20Motors/Products/DF90/2012/DF90A.aspx

It seems any of the new motors on the market are a good choice. Pick the one with the best price and service.

As Vic said
The DF90A has a significantly smaller cowling than the DF100/115/140. It is a better fit for the smaller transom.


Its also about 80lbs lighter. Just to reiterate, the older df90s are not the same as the new ones, they are sisters of the 1950cc df115 and are over 400lbs.

He has been on boats with both motors so seems a qualified judge.

heavy 4 strokes will have less power than the lighter 2 strokes, so power to weight will come into play.


Please explain? Horsepower and torque are standard ratings.

Victor


I think he is just referencing power to weight ratio correct? Not actual prop hp/torque?

From all the comparisons I have read it seems the opposite is true for useable power. Even though the rating is supposed to be standard the smaller displacement motors seem to be stretching their ratings a bit vs the larger engines underating. Our honda 50s are tweaked out 35/40s which probably comes into play with why they seem anemic compared to other 50s.
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Re: How to Install a larger 90+ HP Motor

Postby Catigale » Thu Feb 16, 2012 3:08 pm

I think if a MFG is cheating on the HP rating, they are going to get called on it by the competition PDQ...and power = power, so I would rather have an anemic 60 HP than a powerful 50 HP.... :D
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Re: How to Install a larger 90+ HP Motor

Postby Seapup » Thu Feb 16, 2012 4:13 pm

I think if a MFG is cheating on the HP rating, they are going to get called on it by the competition PDQ...and power = power, so I would rather have an anemic 60 HP than a powerful 50 HP.... :D


Not trying to sidetrack the topic into motor comparisons or start a debate, just saying the sticker on the back is not the whole story. The curve from honda, yamaha and evinrude 150s, all come with the same peak hp rating, but may not perform the same depending on your needs.

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Re: How to Install a larger 90+ HP Motor

Postby davidbourne » Thu Feb 16, 2012 8:53 pm

I think outboard and powering issues will always be relevant to this part of the forum.

But yes, my initial questions were to see where I was missing details on the motor install. Since I'm serious about making a instruction video, I want to get as much info as I can beforehand to do a great install.

But you never really know something until you do it.

Controls
Victor, you said something about not wanting to get your hand stuck with the motor control. I'm not sure what you meant by that. Otherwise, I figure the controls must just run under the cockpit to the starboard stern side. Like I said, I'll figure all that out when I get to it.

Transom Extension
Cowling size is an issue for me because my family and I will be boarding the boat from the water. That's why I wanted to know more about jack plates or transom mounts. If the cowling rams into the helm seat and I have to make a seat mod, I will do it for the benefits of 90+ horsepower.

But if a jack plate/transom extension is a good solution for rear access AND it's good for performance then I should do it and recommend it to others.

How many years did folks install 50s on the 26X because it's what they were told to do? By the hundreds of boats I've looked at in the last two years, I'd say most of them did what the manufacturer said. Then, many realized bigger was better for their needs.

Because I will be on the boat with a lot of stuff, pulling kids on skis, tubes and wake boards, and my 220lb self on a surfboard, I'm going to go with the DF90 Suzuki.

Thanks again for all the input.
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