Forum Home
IntroductionBrowse
Our MacGregorExploringArticlesAbout this Website
ManualsDealer InfoSailing LinksTell a FriendSupport this Website
Forum Home

Forestay failure

A forum for discussing topics relating to MacGregor Powersailor Sailboats

Moderators: Paul S, tangentair, beene, Heath_Mod, Hamin' X, kmclemore, Catigale

Re: Forestay failure

Postby seahouse » Sat Dec 29, 2012 11:48 pm

Since I am a member of the Society of Redundancy Society :D , I wanted to have some backup for the forestay (or failstay?) as well.

So, like others have done, in a jiffy I simply tied the jib halyard to the top rail of the bow pulpit (it has to be tied up somewhere, and leaves one less line to contend with at the mast). A friend who races Sharks (=experienced) said that I might have problems with entanglement with the genoa or furler, but after 2 seasons I’ve not experienced any issues with it. So I haven’t bothered yet making anything more permanent. But I don’t race it, either.

Sorry, this is the best pic that I could find that shows it…

Image
-Brian. :wink:
User avatar
seahouse
Admiral
 
Posts: 2173
Joined: Mon Dec 08, 2008 12:17 am
Location: Niagara at Lake Erie, Ontario. 2011 MacM, 60 hp E-Tec
Sailboat: MacGregor 26M

Re: Forestay failure

Postby kadet » Sun Dec 30, 2012 12:05 am

Where does it connect on the mast to prefent interference with the jib furler?


To it's own separate mast tang.

Image
User avatar
kadet
Admiral
 
Posts: 1021
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2007 8:51 am
Location: Brisbane, Australia. 2008M "Wicked Wave" Yamaha T60
Sailboat: MacGregor 26M

Re: Forestay failure

Postby seahouse » Sun Dec 30, 2012 12:21 am

IIRC, mine is attached to the same hound as the sidestays, forestay, and halyard block with a stainless steel shackle, as supplied by the dealer/factory. Yeah, it's a bit crowded at that point :cry: . Maybe it's significant that I haven't had a problem because the halyard is kept taut. (?)
User avatar
seahouse
Admiral
 
Posts: 2173
Joined: Mon Dec 08, 2008 12:17 am
Location: Niagara at Lake Erie, Ontario. 2011 MacM, 60 hp E-Tec
Sailboat: MacGregor 26M

Re: Forestay failure

Postby Boblee » Sun Dec 30, 2012 1:00 am

As per seahouse but our jib halyard is now our spinnaker halyard and hooks onto the block on the modified anchor roller which acts as a short bowsprit so with the higher mast hound and forward mounting no problems with getting tangled and makes it a bit easier for flying the spinnaker too.
Oh and works as a second forestay :)
Think you might have been very lucky that there wasn't a lot more damage, did you up the bus driver :wink:
Boblee
Admiral
 
Posts: 1701
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2006 7:08 am
Location: Berrigan, Riverina Australia boatless at present

Re: Forestay failure

Postby bartmac » Sun Dec 30, 2012 3:42 am

Not so much a forestay failure---- more brain failure.Still experimenting with my rig so fixed my forstay about 3" higher on the mast on seperate bolt thru setup allowing my rig to be have more adjustment ie I had reached the end of my adjustment.Both threaded parts of my turnbuckle had splitpins to stop coming undone.To allow for adjustment I organised a device which in my mind would stop the turnbuckle from turning BUT didn't allow for the rotary motion of the furler,the end result was the whole furler unwinding the turnbuckle and the furler rope winding around the mechanism instead of the drum,Not nice in gusting 25-30k winds unable to furl our 150 genoa and the forestay turnbuckle partialy unwound.All ended well as the motor was still running and turned into the wind and fixed things.Furler now has a rig which stops it from unwinding the turnbuckle.Happy to report our Mac26x is now very neutral with a very slight weather helm.Will however fit extra forestay in conjunction with anchor rest/bowsprit setup---read a general beefing up of all bow related gear
bartmac
Captain
 
Posts: 722
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 7:11 pm
Location: North Coast NSW Aust

Re: Forestay failure

Postby Ixneigh » Sun Dec 30, 2012 9:14 am

I find it far more preferable to raise the mast in the water. I am lucky that I have many mangrove islands to hide behind while I sort stuff out at my own pace, with no one but the cormerants to see me screw it up :P! More then once it took me several tries to get the wire and line lead correctly. I have gone up a size wire and used 7x7 flexible wire for the head stay. As has been pointed out elsewhere, if you are flying a genoa, this may prevent getting the stay tight enough to reduce headstay sag. I only fly the jib, however.
Ix
User avatar
Ixneigh
Admiral
 
Posts: 1744
Joined: Thu Sep 09, 2010 1:00 pm
Location: Key largo Florida
Sailboat: MacGregor 26M

Re: Forestay failure

Postby Tomfoolery » Sun Dec 30, 2012 11:19 am

Tempus wrote:The forestay broke at the upper swaging point. Right at it. Given the way all the strands broke at exactly the same point AND that it was an impact with a tree branch at less that walking pace, I can't help but wonder if the swaging was done incorrectly and actually weakened the wire rope forestay.

The termination most definitely weakened the wire rope, but that's the nature of the beast. The only terminations that do not weaken the assembly that I'm aware of are rotary swaged or old-school speltered socket terminations, and that's for the crane and rigging industry. I don't know what's what in the small rope and boat industry.

Most terminations have an efficiency (on breaking) of less than 100%. You can't get better than 100% of course, as that's the breaking strength of the rope itself, so barring a termination that actually tests to 100% (rope breaks anywhere along its length, not consistently at the termination), you'll get failure right at the termination. What the failure looks like will depend on the termination, and of course fatigue effects will skew any results, but a failure at the crimp fitting is exactly what I'd expect, even with a new rope.
User avatar
Tomfoolery
Admiral
 
Posts: 4804
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2011 9:42 am
Location: Rochester, NY '99X BF50 'Tomfoolery'
Sailboat: MacGregor 26X

Re: Forestay failure

Postby Newell » Sun Dec 30, 2012 1:02 pm

tkanzler wrote:[quote=a failure at the crimp fitting is exactly what I'd expect, even with a new rope.


I agree, to raise alarm about swaged fittings on the Mac should not be the point of this discussion. I had a forestay break at exactly the same spot as the author of this post and it happened when there was little load but vibration while trailering to Lake Tahoe. This was before I had figured out how to trailer the furler correctly. :macx:
User avatar
Newell
First Officer
 
Posts: 377
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2004 4:42 pm
Location: Layton, Utah, 96X Fast Sunday, 89D Windancer
Sailboat: MacGregor 26X

Re: Forestay failure

Postby BOAT » Sun Dec 30, 2012 9:22 pm

How do you trailer the furler correctly??

The "secondary forstay" looks like a great idea for storms! I know I am not supposed to sail the MAC in storms but I have been caught in so many in the past that I just assumed it would happen in the MAC too. Really though, in this age of GPS and weather radar right on my Ipad I probably will not be experiencing the same surprises I had back when I was sailing in the 70's. (I keep forgetting that).

Still, I like that forstay thing. I would probably not use it enless I were in bad weather, but I would definatly use it! It looks like a good idea to me. If the mast is gonna fall I want it to fall to the sides or to the front, NOT to the rear. When you turnover in a broadside wave it often takes down the mast. Another one that pops the mast back to the transom is a pitchpole in a following sea. Done that before - don't like it.
User avatar
BOAT
Admiral
 
Posts: 3892
Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2012 7:12 pm
Location: Oceanside, CA MACMJ213 2013 ETEC60
Sailboat: MacGregor 26M

Re: Forestay failure

Postby yukonbob » Sun Dec 30, 2012 9:31 pm

From a government safety standpoint (in Canada) the moment you put a knot in a rope of a fitting on a wire sling, it is to be considered a 50% reduction in breaking strength as far as a rough in field calculation for overhead lifting goes.
User avatar
yukonbob
Admiral
 
Posts: 1825
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2011 9:54 pm
Location: Whitehorse Yukon
Sailboat: Other

Re: Forestay failure

Postby Newell » Mon Dec 31, 2012 4:06 pm

When I ran a furler I supported both ends while trailering it against the mast (read supported by). Either move the furler back on the mast or adding a front support for the overhang works.

My present opinion of furlers is they are both troublesome and not more safe, there are weight aloft and efficiency issues. When you have a jib hanked on and sailing you have essentially 2 forestays at work. if you drop the jib and tie off the halyard you still have 2 holder-uppers on your side. The only point where I am working with a single stay is when raising the mast, using the jib uphaul (stay) and if that ever starts to bother me I will tie off my spinaker halyard to the bow.

Hanking on may appear to be messy and unsafe while on-the-water but a stuck furler isn't much fun in a blow either. I look at the work involved as a even trade off between furler storage and covering and hanking on and removing the jib.

I have 2 furlers I plan to sell with the boats, as I know how the present mindset works. :D :) :|
User avatar
Newell
First Officer
 
Posts: 377
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2004 4:42 pm
Location: Layton, Utah, 96X Fast Sunday, 89D Windancer
Sailboat: MacGregor 26X

Re: Forestay failure

Postby Ixneigh » Mon Dec 31, 2012 5:30 pm

Well I want to hear more about that pitchpoleing...

No one much mentions staylok fittings. Expensive but nearly 100 % and time proven. They were supposed to be the last word in terminals. I've seen them fail but not often.

Ix
User avatar
Ixneigh
Admiral
 
Posts: 1744
Joined: Thu Sep 09, 2010 1:00 pm
Location: Key largo Florida
Sailboat: MacGregor 26M

Re: Forestay failure

Postby BOAT » Mon Dec 31, 2012 7:52 pm

In an A23 - it had a wide flat transom. We got heeled over too far on the top of a large swell/breaker (my fault - it was near gale force at the top of the swells and I was pointing wrong when we crested the top). It was so quiet in the bottom of the canyon (swell) I guess I was tricked into thinking the wind was calmer. I just was not paying attention.

Anyways, as we crested the top we heeled too far and I lost rudder control, I pulled the tiller and nothing happened, I pushed it and nothing happened. We spun straight down the face of the crest and rode it down and augered in at the bottom. She went in nose first and then as she started to pop out she rolled to starboard all the way on to her side. It was alsmost like for a moment we were going backwards. The mast was flopping like a piece of spagetti. The boat righted and with all the sheets flying in the wind she just bobbed up and down on the swells. It took a little while to regain composure and chase all the sheets and get pointed again. The little u-bolt thing that holds the bottom of the forestay was bent so bad it could not be unscrewed. It was then I realised that mast could have come right down on our heads back in the cockpit. I did not like that thought.

This all happened only about a mile outside of Avalon! It was a bad day in April and we got a late start putting out. I had to get back home to Long Beach so we pressed on. It was more stupidity than bad weather that caused the submarine action.
User avatar
BOAT
Admiral
 
Posts: 3892
Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2012 7:12 pm
Location: Oceanside, CA MACMJ213 2013 ETEC60
Sailboat: MacGregor 26M

Re: Forestay failure

Postby DaveB » Thu Jan 03, 2013 5:48 pm

Your not alone in these mishaps. 3 years ago a MacX rigged his boat in a sign that said Sail boats only rigging. He lost his mast after raiseing mast and went to ramp and was demasted by a large oak branch overhanging the Sailboats only section at Biscane Bay Marina.
I saw the large branch and evoided it. Couldn't warn others in time.
They cut the limb off before he could take picture.
Even my Launch at S.Dade past week you had to avoid a hugh sign frame next to ramp.
Always ck for wires and trees or anything else that restric a 40 ft. height.
Dave

Tempus wrote:OK, some of this is a tad embarrassing as it shows I lost situational awareness at a critical time, but it's also a message worth sharing....unfortunately.

We were parked near the ramp getting the :macm: rigged ready for launch. I always look for power lines and trees before-hand. No lines. Big old trees, but so long as I drive in a straight line from the rigging area to the ramp, its all good.

After I put the mast up, unbolted the rudders etc and was ready to roll, there was a bus parked directly in front of me (where it shouldn't be I might add), so I swung around it and crawled towards the ramp. Without any other indication, there was an almighty 'BANG' and the wife yelling that the mast just fell. By swinging around the bus, I'd forgotten about the proximity to trees and was relying on my earlier assessment that it was all good. But no, having swung around the bus, it wasn't.

Message # One to myself: Always, always, always look. After that, have someone actually watch as I manouvre the trailered boat onto the ramp.

The forestay broke at the upper swaging point. Right at it. Given the way all the strands broke at exactly the same point AND that it was an impact with a tree branch at less that walking pace, I can't help but wonder if the swaging was done incorrectly and actually weakened the wire rope forestay.

Damage: Broken forestay, obviously. Roller furler housing damaged. VHF mast-top aerial broken. Solar panel frame slightly bent and glass shattered. It could have been alot worse all things considered.

Message # Two to myself: Beef up the forestay when replacing it. If the swaging was actually faulty and failed when under sail, the result would have been considerably more....if not catastrophic.

Message # Three to myself: Stop admiring posts about people fitting a secondary forestay. Bloody well fit one!!

So, after that happened, we re-stowed the mast, and drove back home very annoyed, angry & embarrassed.

After removing the mast and furled genoa back at home, we decided that we shouldn't let that destroy a few days out on the boat, so we dragged her back (to another ramp!!) and spent a few days motoring around.

I post this story in the hope that it reinforces the need to look, Look, LOOK at all times, that people might want to have a close look at their forestay swages for possible damage, and also to consider the notion of a secondary forestay. Hopefully you're all smarter and more situationally aware than I was that day, and my story simply leaves you bemusedly shaking your head.
User avatar
DaveB
Admiral
 
Posts: 2544
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2008 5:34 pm
Location: Cape Coral, Florida,1997 Mac. X, 2013 Merc.50hp Big Foot, sold 9/10/15
Sailboat: MacGregor 26X

Re: Forestay failure

Postby Matt19020 » Thu Jan 03, 2013 6:45 pm

This is what I did after I had a failure:

This has been tested and so far all is good. Mast hound should be as hgh on the mast as possible and turnbuckle is on the port side of anchor roller. In this location there is no interference to the furling jib and the Mod was less then $100, including swagging tool from Duckworks.com This now gives me some piece of mind with a redundant forestay

Image

Image
User avatar
Matt19020
Captain
 
Posts: 576
Joined: Sat Jul 15, 2006 3:29 pm
Location: Middle River, Chesapeake Bay MD...2007 MacM Suzuki DF70 4-Stroke ..... "My Time"
Sailboat: MacGregor 26M

PreviousNext

Return to MacGregor Powersailor Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests

Copyright 2004 - 2018 © HK Innovations