Forestay failure

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BOAT
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Re: Forestay failure

Post by BOAT » Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:07 am

Okay, thanks Captain tkanzler. I guess it's okay to trailer with the genoa connected to the mast! Glad to hear that. I think I need to order a sock?

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Tomfoolery
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Re: Forestay failure

Post by Tomfoolery » Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:08 am

This is the only pic I have of the furler layed down for transport. It was taken before I bought it - I support it for transport better than what's shown. But it does show how the hound sits proud, and there's plenty of room for the forestay to rotate at the cross bolt to lay against the mast. Well beyond parallel with the mast, in this case. :|

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Re: Forestay failure

Post by BOAT » Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:18 am

That's a great picture Skipper - I can see everything just fine - thanks. I guess we really can't talk about forestay failure without taking a lot of other things into consideration. That's why I asked too many questions - sorry.

Bottom line: Is forestay failure something we need to be concerned about? Is it a very very rare thing on the MACs? I know that side shroud failure on my previous boat model was common and back then everything was turnbuckles. They tended to back out on the slack side if you were on a long leg into the wind.

Is forestay failure at all common here? I have not read about any at all under sail on these blogs. I assume it never happens.

I guess that should be the point of all this?
:|

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Re: Forestay failure

Post by Tomfoolery » Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:21 am

BOAT wrote:I guess it's okay to trailer with the genoa connected to the mast! Glad to hear that. I think I need to order a sock?
Not if you have a sun cover sewn to the sail, but not everyone buys them that way.

By the way, I used to own a 1979 A7.0, which was an A23 with a transom mounted spade rudder and off-center O/B mount (no O/B notch in the transom, no rudder cassette hole in the sole). I feel your pain about her being a fat-bottomed pig, but she was still a lot of fun, and pretty bullet-proof. I miss that boat in many ways. There's nothing like hanging onto a tiller with your other hand dangling over the rail in the water rushing by, and the women screaming at you for 'tilting' too far. :D 8)

Image

Rudder slides up long pintle for shallow operation. Had to make a new shaft on a regular basis, as even a soft grounding would bend it. :D Boat came with a wheel, but I'd removed it by the time the second pic was taken.

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Re: Forestay failure

Post by BOAT » Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:49 am

Wow, that's the boat all right! I never understood why Whitney Peden changed to the outboard rudder. Mine was a 71 with the inboard rudder in the well that was heavy and you lifted it out. I still have the tiller arm. They don't make laminated carved wood tillers like that anymore! And the cockpit was HUGE! I will have trouble getting used to the tiny cockpit in my M.

The boat was as you say VERY bullet proof and heavy weather ready. We sailed The Sea of Cortez a lot with many other A23's and A21's.

Out of a fleet of 1400 we only lost three boats that I know of. One on the rocks in Mexico, another caught fire in Canada, and another sunk in San Diego for unknown reasons. All others lost were torn up for scrap with chainsaws or destroyed. I donated mine to charity.

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Re: Forestay failure

Post by Tomfoolery » Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:02 am

BOAT wrote:Is forestay failure at all common here? I have not read about any at all under sail on these blogs. I assume it never happens.
That I couldn't tell you. My knowledge of rigging comes mainly from cranes and heavy lifting, not marine. While the same principles apply, the specifics are different, so I would listen to those who have first-hand knowledge when it comes to frequency or likelihood of failure.

I do know that when I took the mast down this fall for winter storage, I noticed some broken strands at the top of the forestay, where the thimble is. So a new forestay is in the cards for me this spring. Inspection is critical, and with some types of fittings (swedged sleeves, for instance), you may not be able to see deterioration inside the fitting. At least with the Nicopress type fittings you can see the wire, for the most part. Rotary swaged socket fittings, not so much, plus the sockets themselves can crack (though I've only seen that in marine applications with SS fittings, never in heavy rigging).

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Re: Forestay failure

Post by Tomfoolery » Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:24 am

I just realized you have an M not an X, so the connection to the mast hound may be a bit different. A swivel may be involved there, especially with the rotating mast and furler.

As to the A7.0, I believe it also had a mast-head rig, rather than fractional, but I just don't remember any more. It became a Balboa 23 the following year, as I think the Aquarius moniker was dropped. And yes, it was a huge cockpit for a boat that size. Easy to set up, easy to sail (main sheet lower block was on the cockpit sole, though), easy to maintain, and just a fun boat, especially for a family and/or beginner. I know someone on Lake Ontario who's done a bunch of upgrades, and sails his (single-handed) all over the lake without fear. :D That's the original trailer it's on, too. Notice the grease holes in the wheel covers. :D

But I'm better off with the :macx: , as it has a much bigger cabin, and can go very fast (and pull a wakeboard), and it weighs about the same as the A7.0 once the water is drained, so I can tow it with a reasonable tow vehicle that spends most of its life not towing anything.

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Re: Forestay failure

Post by Boblee » Thu Jan 10, 2013 6:10 pm

But have to differ with you regarding the jib block. You can't use that as a backup forestay (btdt) unless you never plan to use your furler. Reason being is that it is too close and will wind up with the furler, fouling it. And that can be really inconvenient if you are in an increasing wind and you can't wind that baby up. Even with the spinnaker block about 8 inches above the forestay, I need to make sure it is tight (no slack) or it can still interfere. But when it is pulled tight, it will not interfere. The jib block is too close and will interfere even when pulled tight.
You are right the block in that position would? interfere with the furler if it was used for a safety forestay unless the deck attachment was moved further forward (ours is), been a long while since I put a new hound up the mast (18") but did leave the block there prior to moving the hound up for better operation of the spinnaker and chutescoop.
Really can't remember whether I ran the spinnaker from the block in it's original position but probably could have as the tack block for the spinnaker is run from the modified mini bowsprit/ anchor roller getting it well away from the furler and when not being used is clipped to the mast carrier above the rail (or ours is) so it doesn't foul then either.
Boat for carrying the furler I think all most of us do is lay it along the mast and fit an extension out the front so there is no droop which can leave it permanently bent after a period in the sun.
We also carry the boom and all sail gear on the mast but that requires lifting the carry points and installing a support in the middle of the mast, this allows for much faster set up and the need to move the mast/spreaders sideways to clear the lifelines as they sit above the lines.
Re protection of your jib/gen we got a piece of sacrificial material down both the exposed edges, this has lasted 7 years now but this will probably be the last and it will need it replaced.
This photo shows the carry setup reasonably well with the support at the mast step, if you want close ops of the supports let me know and will take a photo of the off the boat.
Image

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Re: Forestay failure

Post by BOAT » Thu Jan 10, 2013 6:53 pm

Wow, you really do carry that mast up high Captain Boblee Sir. I will indeed make an extension as suggested but I think my lorrie is even taller than yours so I need to be careful about that. I think in your part of the world where the wallaby live they are very familiar with my tow vehicle? It’s a tall van called a Sprinter made by Mercedes? Anyways I don’t want the mast extension to make an unwanted visit into the rear of my van.

I’m going to start fabricating the extension as soon as the rain stops over here.

Right now I think what I need most is advice, and a list of parts for creating that secondary forestay everyone is talking about. I would need to put another hound up the mast to do it because anything on the existing one would interfere with my furling genoa.

Anyone have suggestions as for the type of hardware? Do I just run a hole right through the mast??? (That seems wrong when I think about it).

What’s the best way to get another wire connected up there?

And all this talk about hauling up a genoa sock on the halyard?? WHAT halyard?? Once the genoa is up the halyard is already busy holding up the genoa!! What halyard are they talking about when they say “run this sock up the genoa with your jib halyard” What??

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Re: Forestay failure

Post by Highlander » Thu Jan 10, 2013 7:42 pm

Last edited by Highlander on Thu Jan 10, 2013 8:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Forestay failure

Post by Highlander » Thu Jan 10, 2013 8:00 pm

Now if u want to know what it takes to control multi headsails check out the last half of this video to see all my standing & running rigging boat is rigged for 5 headsails :P
http://s844.photobucket.com/albums/ab1/ ... 010064.mp4

J 8)

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Re: Forestay failure

Post by BOAT » Thu Jan 10, 2013 8:24 pm

Looks like those pictures were taken at doosk, aye Keptain? 8) Man oh MAN that's a lot of rig!
One thing that really helps me looking at this is the mast hound at the top - why not a drill hole way up there?? What could it hurt?? The mast ain't gonna snap 3 iches from the top!

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Re: Forestay failure

Post by bartmac » Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:03 pm

Hey Bob...your rig looks just like ours.....mast high enough for cockpit head room when on the road....front hatch able to be opened....also find the mast forms a pretty good tarp carrier....our shed is too full of sh~t to fit the boat in.We can even put our dodger and bimini up under the mast when in travel posi

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Re: Forestay failure

Post by Dimitri-2000X-Tampa » Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:37 pm

BOAT wrote:What do you wrap the genoa with? (All I know are sail bags - man am I out of date).

Also, with the genoa attached it seems to me that you need to bend the furled genoa into an "S" shape to tie it to the mast? I was concerned that would put a lot of bend in the stay where it's swedged. Back in my day we were told to never bend a stay at the swedge. I guess it's okay? (I'm really tempted to unhook the genoa from the mast)

Is that how most people do it? They just leave the genoa connected to the mast?
There are so many extra lines between the halyards, the sheets, the topping lift and others that there are more than enough lines to secure the wrapped genoa to the mast. The genoa cover is only wrapped on with the sheets. And I always have the furled genoa straight against the mast, no s bends or anything like that. The point is that when you bring it down, you can only tie it behind the roller until you roll it from stepped to trailer position. That keeps it well enough under control. But then when in trailer position, you use the rest of the lines to wrap it all the way since you need to secure all those lines anyway before hitting the road.

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Re: Forestay failure

Post by Tomfoolery » Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:55 pm

BOAT wrote:Right now I think what I need most is advice, and a list of parts for creating that secondary forestay everyone is talking about. I would need to put another hound up the mast to do it because anything on the existing one would interfere with my furling genoa.

Anyone have suggestions as for the type of hardware? Do I just run a hole right through the mast??? (That seems wrong when I think about it).

What’s the best way to get another wire connected up there?
The :macm: uses a different hound than the :macx: , but it's a simple matter to add one either way. I added a second halyard, 16" higher than the jib halyard, specifically for the asymmetric spinnaker. It came with the mounting bolt, which passes through the mast, plus the smaller one that holds the block. That halyard (black in this pic) does double-duty as a backup forestay, mostly because it's already there, and there is a convenient place on the bow rail to clip it.

Image
BOAT wrote:And all this talk about hauling up a genoa sock on the halyard?? WHAT halyard?? Once the genoa is up the halyard is already busy holding up the genoa!! What halyard are they talking about when they say “run this sock up the genoa with your jib halyard” What??
The Chutescoop, among others, has an internal halyard and block. You hoist the spinnaker with the Chutescoop with the spinnaker halyard, then use the internal halyard (that's built-in) to raise the sock. The spinnaker halyard is used to hoist the whole mess, including the sock 'halyard', which is a loop, and serves to both hoist the sock (to unsock the spinnaker), and to dowse the spinnaker by pulling the sock back down. And a spinnaker sock is relatively cheap for small boats like these. Like less than $200 complete (not including the spinnaker). http://www.chutescoop.com/ My :macx: needs the 25 footer, as the 20 footer that came with it is too short (by a lot) for the spinnaker.

And if you choose not to use a dowsing sock, then you use the spinnaker halyard to hoist and dowse the spinnaker, similar to a hank-on jib.

If using a sock over the jib or genoa, the furler used with the Macs has a 'halyard' built into it, so the regular halyard isn't used. I'm probably going to take mine off, in fact, as I just don't need it. I only use it for raising the mast, and I could use the spinnaker halyard for that just as easily. But if using a sock, you can use the regular jib halyard to pull it up over the furled sail.
Last edited by Tomfoolery on Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:48 am, edited 2 times in total.

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