Flipping a Macgregor

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Re: Flipping a Macgregor

Post by BOAT » Thu Jun 09, 2016 8:52 am

Signaleer wrote:
BOAT wrote:
Signaleer wrote:
This makes me more aware of the fact that the X and the M do not sail the same - this could be some of the confusion.
I've never said anything about an M (nor anyone else here as far as I know)... But you seem hull bent on describing an X even though you admittedly have never been on one. Its like I am on sailing anarchy... but I digress.

Is what you are saying.. (dramatic pause)... Are you literally trying to state that the 26M is the only boat in the world that can't be knocked down and doesn't round up? And by the way, rounding up has a definition, and it is not what you are stating.
Rounding up and knock down seem to be the confusion terms here. It seems to be different for different people. I'm not sure what authority we could go to for definitions on this stuff. Some of the posters put some specifics on the terms, like:

"The term to me means when the boat heads up into the wind no matter what the helmsman tries."

Some do not - so I am not really sure what it is we are talking about. If the above is the correct definition then I am indeed wrong, and in that case my boat has NEVER "rounded up". I have never had 'boat' overcome the helm as described above unless the boat was not moving. That's why I keep saying the boat "stops dead in it's tracks" If the boat is not moving forward there is no way to steer and the boat can get blown around this way and that. In MY experience - on MY boat - I have always been able to steer the boat as long as I am moving forward. The racing guys get stuck spinning around on their keels because they have STOPPED and (as you know) the rudders don't do anything if your STOPPED.

I have felt the boat TRY to turn into the wind when heeled over but I have always been able to add downwind rudder and continue on. I have never had the boat just turn into the wind without me being able to stop it. That is where I think I am getting confused. I have experienced such a thing on other boats - but I have never had it happen on my MAC.

I was commenting on the M and the X because it seemed to me the M owners were describing the round up maneuver differently than the X owners in SOME cases - I was speculating. It's worth investigating.

These are the kinds of discussions you see on the racing forums - everyone is trying to figure out the tiniest details of performance. They usually do get pretty long.

(POST 106!)

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Re: Flipping a Macgregor

Post by Signaleer » Thu Jun 09, 2016 10:44 am

Signaleer wrote:
BOAT wrote:
Signaleer wrote:
I've never said anything about an M (nor anyone else here as far as I know)... But you seem hull bent on describing an X even though you admittedly have never been on one. Its like I am on sailing anarchy... but I digress.

Is what you are saying.. (dramatic pause)... Are you literally trying to state that the 26M is the only boat in the world that can't be knocked down and doesn't round up? And by the way, rounding up has a definition, and it is not what you are stating.
Rounding up and knock down seem to be the confusion terms here.
Not really.. Port is port, starboard is starboard, fore is fore, and aft is aft. I've never had any confusion about rounding up, nor anyone I've ever come across in the sailing community. Rounding up is a natural action of any sailboat when the rudders can no longer control the direction of the boat. Usually due to excessive heeling. Your :macm: will round up, just like an :macx: and just like any other sailboat. ... and yes... even if you have your magical autopilot (the only one in the world that makes it impossible to round up).
my boat has NEVER "rounded up".
Like I said, you should market this feature. Or actually go sailing in some wind. I assure you, show up at my place with a six pack when there is some weather and I am sure we can get your M boat (M boat?) to round up. All this tells me is that you don't sail in strong wind, which is 100% fine! To each their own. But stop making sweeping observations and re-writing the performance of other people's boats based on your own limited experience.
have felt the boat TRY to turn into the wind when heeled over but I have always been able to add downwind rudder and continue on.
The term you are looking for is weather-helm. Or feel free to redefine that one too (Yes, I'm being a bit tool-ish...but he started it).
I was commenting on the M and the X because it seemed to me the M owners were describing the round up maneuver differently than the X owners in SOME cases - I was speculating. It's worth investigating.
No person on here or anywhere has described rounding up different on the X and M. They are exactly the same. If you are trying to understand what sailing is with an unbalanced rig, or in different conditions, or with different clothe-types, or if you hull is blue or white... go learn that.

Investigating what? The X and M are incredibly similar boats in all aspects. I had the option to go with either and looked at many of both. This was after cutting my teeth on a P26 in SFBay. There are things I'm considering adopting on my X if I ever get around to it. I'd love a taller, lighter, pivoting rig and I've even tried to figure out how we could possibly add a wing sail of sorts - that now that would be cool. Transferable water ballast (which I have seen on a 40 footer) would be awesome. The ideas are endless with these vessels, which is why I love them - both.

I hope you enjoy sailing skipper and if you ever want to get into one of them 'racing things' with a 'racing guy' bring your M to the Gulf. We can continue the saga of X vs. M... which much like Hillary's campaign, Trump's stupid statements, or my ability to let things go.... just won't die. :)

Ed.

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Re: Flipping a Macgregor

Post by BOAT » Thu Jun 09, 2016 11:51 am

I think your explanation does indeed clear up the issues of the terms - Rounding Up and Weather Helm.

I am referring to "weather helm" in regards to the Auto Pilot - and that is the term I should have been using in regards to the AP making corrections to that phenomenon. I was answering a person who said thier AP was dropping out when the boat heeled over too much. My AP does not drop out even at 45 degrees. I'm sorry you don't like that but it's a fact.

I don't know what kind of weather you are sailing in if your winds are exceeding 50 miles per hour! There is a very clear and well documented videos of the M boat sailing in such winds and others on you tube in 40 plus mile per hour winds and people in Canada sailing in high winds and myself right here in 30 mph winds. In all these situations where I see the boat sailing in these high winds I do not see the boat getting "turned into the wind or the helmsman out of control". If your sailing in winds over 50 MPH over there that might be the reason that the boat would "round-up". I did not know you guys sail in 60 mph winds, and your right - I don't - in those kinds of winds I need special sails and a second forestry to rig it. (I don't have storm jib on my MAC - but I did have one on my A23 for sailing in Mexico).

You are correct that I do not go sailing in those kinds of winds on purpose, and I have never sailed the M boat in 60 MPH winds. Does your boat "round-up" in 60 MPH winds? Or 50, ? 40? At what point does this happen on your boat?

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Re: Flipping a Macgregor

Post by seahouse » Thu Jun 09, 2016 12:26 pm

There are many details here to be considered than are being acknowledged/ recognized. BOAT has taken the time and effort to properly balance his M, something that is not as important to most sailors.

Which is to say that, because of his experience he does not need the safety margin (and consequential loss of performance) that extra weather helm provides, and so can tune it out such that the amount of rudder input needed (and drag) to recover at higher heel angles (to avoid rounding up) never exceeds the stall angle of the rudders.

With the M and its daggerboard, partial retraction does not result in significant change to the balance of the boat. With an X though, partially retracting the centreboard results in an aft movement of the centre of lateral resistance, which can easily shift the (already possibly high) forces needed to counteract weathercocking well beyond what the rudders can provide.

Auto pilot might have the capability of making corrections earlier, and in smaller amounts, which if not caught earlier would be beyond what the rudders are capable of correcting.

Further discussion would involve many other tuning factors, such as mast rake, mast bend, shroud tensioning, steering lash, weight distribution, sail trim etc etc. Found in books on sail and rig tuning.

:wink: - B.

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Re: Flipping a Macgregor

Post by Signaleer » Thu Jun 09, 2016 12:57 pm

BOAT wrote: You are correct that I do not go sailing in those kinds of winds on purpose, and I have never sailed the M boat in 60 MPH winds. Does your boat "round-up" in 60 MPH winds? Or 50, ? 40? At what point does this happen on your boat?
Boat, I could round your boat up in 20 MPH or 10MPH winds with enough clothe and non-optimized sail configuration.

This is my point: You think that 'rounding up' has only to do with wind speed. Or that heel only has to do with that as well I suppose.

We could all heel a boat in 10 mph and at 100 mph. The point is that sailing is a skill and the Skipper is the main component. Knowledge of proper terminology and and understanding of the forces that actually create heel, leeway, lift, and how they affect center of effort, are all pretty important to a Skipper.

If you think that it is only wind speed creates round up - you have some more learning to do.

And I don't understand why you think I've even mentioned your auto pilots capabilities - I have only addressed that it is the only auto pilot in the world that doesn't round up :)

I'm not arguing it holds a true course. Never have. That's what an auto pilot is supposed to do. Congratulations! But trust me, I could, and pretty much anyone, could get your auto pilot to lose its course in the right conditions. (and I'm not trying to argue with you...you probably don't understand what I am saying) but some are better than others, but they all have limits. You just haven't found that limit yet.

In any case this is getting old so I'll just say... glad I helped you with some terminology. Sorry if I took a particularly negative interest in your posts because they were factually incorrect, and like I said, your boat is a sailboat, it will round up. Your boat is a sailboat, under conditions where balance is not optimized or compromised you will experience either weather helm or leehelm. Your auto pilot is great, but is just like all them and has limits. Guess what - you have a sailboat. Both X's and M's will behave ... guess what... like a sailboat. Just like catalinas, hunters, swans, cals, pearsons... the list goes on.

Now go sheet in (I mean pull the ropes) the next time you are out in wind... record the round up for us all to see.

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Re: Flipping a Macgregor

Post by Signaleer » Thu Jun 09, 2016 1:01 pm

seahouse wrote:There are many details here to be considered than are being acknowledged/ recognized. BOAT has taken the time and effort to properly balance his M, something that is not as important to most sailors.

Which is to say that, because of his experience he does not need the safety margin (and consequential loss of performance) that extra weather helm provides, and so can tune it out such that the amount of rudder input needed (and drag) to recover at higher heel angles (to avoid rounding up) never exceeds the stall angle of the rudders.

With the M and its daggerboard, partial retraction does not result in significant change to the balance of the boat. With an X though, partially retracting the centreboard results in an aft movement of the centre of lateral resistance, which can easily shift the (already possibly high) forces needed to counteract weathercocking well beyond what the rudders can provide.

Auto pilot might have the capability of making corrections earlier, and in smaller amounts, which if not caught earlier would be beyond what the rudders are capable of correcting.

Further discussion would involve many other tuning factors, such as mast rake, mast bend, shroud tensioning, steering lash, weight distribution, sail trim etc etc. Found in books on sail and rig tuning.

:wink: - B.
:) ... uh what? :):):) Ok now I am just having fun. If you think Boat raised any concepts of changing the center of effort or the center of gravity or center of lateral resistance relative the center of buoyancy and any other term you were introducing ... You read something in his posts I didn't. :)

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Re: Flipping a Macgregor

Post by seahouse » Thu Jun 09, 2016 1:17 pm

Those, among many, are ways that lead to the end result he describes. It is not unreasonable to hear that a Mac is within the bounds of these adjustments. I would guess you might even be able to balance beyond that point to lee helm (if you chose to for some reason).

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Re: Flipping a Macgregor

Post by BOAT » Thu Jun 09, 2016 1:17 pm

I guess after so many years I just assumed it was the boats fault but I guess you have a point. One of the things many of us did in the A23 was pull on the tiller when the boat tried to turn upwind. (Yes, I have experienced it many many times, like I said), this was a knee-jerk reaction by most skippers when the boat started to turn into the wind - and most boats not forgiving - as you pulled harder on the tiller the boat would heel over further and eventually your passengers start to fall off the cockpit seats and then the next event is when the rudder loses it's bite. In Mexico I saw this all the time and experienced it a few times myself:

Image

On the A21 my particular issue was the nose dive under a kite - this oftem pulled the rudder out of the water because the rudder was off the transom on that boat:

Image

Most of the time I had these issues was in very high winds - in excess of 40 knots which is very common on the Sea of Cortez, but the 38 foot tides make it nice to walk into shore twice a day:

Image

And these were the old day before electronic Auto Pilots so in my case the AP is a new toy so I am by no means an expert.

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Re: Flipping a Macgregor

Post by seahouse » Thu Jun 09, 2016 1:28 pm

Countering with rudder is not the only response. Simultaneously releasing the mainsheet (already in your other hand) slightly (enough to allow the rudders to retain authority) will reduce the roundup tendency of course, the two are done together. A person new to the helm (or with less sporty passengers) will allow some turning into the wind to reduce this, at the expense of speed (and thrill factor, lol).

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Re: Flipping a Macgregor

Post by BOAT » Thu Jun 09, 2016 1:45 pm

seahouse wrote:Countering with rudder is not the only response. Simultaneously releasing the mainsheet (already in your other hand) slightly (enough to allow the rudders to retain authority) will reduce the roundup tendency of course, the two are done together. A person new to the helm (or with less sporty passengers) will allow some turning into the wind to reduce this, at the expense of speed (and thrill factor, lol).
Yeah, i think signaler was trying to say that any boat can be dumped if the skipper does something wrong, and that's not where I was going - I was trying to express that I have some idea of the phenomenon and some experience with it - and in my history I have found some boats less forgiving that others. By asking if the M was different from the X it elicited his response. I guess he says the two boats sail the same way. I have no reason to doubt him..

All I know is that these maneuvers that would cause so much trouble on previous boats I have sailed are not a problem on my current boat.

I have sailed a lot of strange craft:

Image

In some strange places:

Image

But in all my travels i have found every boat to be a different - I guess it was wrong of me to assume that the X would sail different than the M.

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Re: Flipping a Macgregor

Post by Jimmyt » Thu Jun 09, 2016 2:27 pm

I've experienced the same phenomenon that you have BOAT, albeit not due to autopilot, but due to frozen helmsman(or helmswoman). I was telling the NEW crew that the boat would not turn over. I told them that no matter what they did to it, it would eventually round up. Well, they almost put me in the drink, but the M never rounded up. We were on a reach with full main and 150 genoa, pulling a "highlander". We were never able to reach a point where the low-side rudder let go. I'm sure it's there, but it seems to be at a ridiculous spot where you are no longer sailing, but floating on her side. If work lets up, maybe I can sketch something up to figure out where the 'let go' point is. It won't be as pretty as Tom's work though.

Ed's a nice guy. Seems we've hit a topic he's passionate about.

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Re: Flipping a Macgregor

Post by Signaleer » Thu Jun 09, 2016 2:43 pm

Jimmyt wrote:Ed's a nice guy. Seems we've hit a topic he's passionate about.
I resent this remark :)

(Thanks man) ...

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Re: Flipping a Macgregor

Post by BOAT » Thu Jun 09, 2016 2:56 pm

Yeah, I feel bad - I did not want to make Ed upset. Besides, he is right. And any guy that sails in San Francisco has seen huge wind. Don't even get me started on Atlantic Ocean sailors - you guys are way braver than me.

I just have this same uncanny experience with my boat just like you described - the boat just keeps tipping over more and more and more instead of turning into the wind - I too tell my wife the same thing when she asks to turn into the wind - "just stay on course - the boat can't tip over- if the wind holds I'll let out some sail - hold the bearing!" The next thing I know I'm at 45 degrees plus plowing right along at 5 knots watching my cell phone fly accross the cabin.

I think Ed was describing a situation where someone is on a broad reach in moderate wind and they suddenly pull all the sheets in as tight as possible trying to dump the boat.

I have tried that!

In my little Koralle or my friends Hobie or my old Pacific CAT that would mean swimming in water. In my A23 it would mean a sudden loss of rudder bite and spinning on the keel. Om the MAC when I do that the boat just tips over - I can't explain it - maybe Ed knows what's going on. Maybe it's just what you said - perhaps that lower rudder is buried so far into the water it can't lose it bite.

That is why I want Tom to make a picture for us - the must be an angle where the rudders no longer work.

The only reason I keep this post alive is because of the title - you know damn well that everyone who types in their GOOGLE: "MACGREGOR FLIPS OVER" is going to be brought to this very post now for the next 100 years so I want to make sure this is presented correctly: I CAN'T FLIP MY MAC! I know others are claiming they can, but so far - I can't find a valid incident for the M boat.

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Re: Flipping a Macgregor

Post by yukonbob » Thu Jun 09, 2016 3:18 pm

BOAT wrote:Sea of Cortez, but the 38 foot tides make it nice to walk into shore twice a day:
uuuhh...that would make it one of the most extreme tidal ranges in the world right behind the Bay of Fundy.

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Re: Flipping a Macgregor

Post by BOAT » Thu Jun 09, 2016 3:41 pm

It's pretty radical - I don't know if it's 38 feet all the time but when i was there is was really big tides - I would need to look it up on GOOGLE.

We would moore out at least 2000 feet or more and walk in.

Image


And of course - launching the boat from the beach was fun but to retrieve the boat you need a tractor:

Image


I spent a lot of time in Mexico back in the 70's:

Image

According to National Geographic The northern end has a 32-foot tidal range, the third largest in North America.

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