Tacking in high winds

A forum for discussing topics relating to MacGregor Powersailor Sailboats
Dreamcatcher
Deckhand
Posts: 31
Joined: Sat Jan 08, 2011 7:13 am
Sailboat: MacGregor 26X

Re: Tacking in high winds

Post by Dreamcatcher »

You are right, Boat. Somewhere around 35 degrees, the X gets squirmy, probably because it is teetering on the chine. I think it does harden up at about 40 degrees, but by then I know I'm sailing very inefficiently. I roll the Genoa in a bit, the boat speeds up, flattens out and stays on course better.
User avatar
BOAT
Admiral
Posts: 4967
Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2012 5:12 pm
Sailboat: MacGregor 26M
Location: Oceanside, CA MACMJ213 2013 ETEC60

Re: Tacking in high winds

Post by BOAT »

I have done a lot of racing - I also have a lot of regatta trophy's. Racing is extremely observing very tiny details - your gauging the distance to the committee boat for the start - your keenly aware of the positions of all the boats and the rules of the road - your even looking at the positions of their sheet cars - you debate endlessly in your head when it's time to tack - - your watching the water for the slightest ripple of wind - there are SO many things your awareness is in an incredible high activity status during a race - racing may seem slow and boring to the spectators but to the participants there is a lot of action. For me my Autism is on high alert - I'm so focused on every detail that I can forget I'm even on a boat. It's the same skill I use looking at my databases and spotting an error amongst three million records. Being autistic helps.

I can tell you - the NUMBER ONE thing your concerned about - trying to avoid - and if it happens EVERYONE on board will groan and cry - SLOWING DOWN. THAT is your main enemy - you want to keep the speed up as fast as it can possibly be without slowing down - if the boat even starts to slow down everyone goes into panic mode - the skipper is barking - the grinder starts winding in sheets - you start looking at yor course to see if this is the time to turn - your scanning the surface for wind ripples - you are doing EVERYTHING you can to prevent the boat from SLOWING DOWN. There is a max hull speed and you want to get there AND STAY THERE.

THAT - is why the racers DON'T reef their boats - they would rather take on water than slow down. No - when you race you don't reef because the boat is heeling - what you do is send every spare body you can to the rails to help put more force against your sail in the wind which helps make you go even FASTER. Take a close look at the IMOCA60 boats - they are designed with a wide transom to accommodate sailing on their sides without a crew - those single handed boats add beam to help because those guys have no one to send to the rail - but then look at the ITMA boats that have crews and they are all narrow because they would rather heel than add beam to reduce speed and heeling - they have crews that can help ballast - same for the MAC70 - same principle, except on the 70 Roger put in ballast pumps to replace the racing crew. Trust me - heeling is not considered a horrible thing in racing - and why some pleasure boaters seem to have this strange religion against it is beyond me - it was not an issue when I was growing up on sailboats.

No gentlemen - heeling is very low on the list of worries when you race - trust me. I gave up the racing life because it was just too stressful for me.
User avatar
sailboatmike
Admiral
Posts: 1597
Joined: Thu Mar 12, 2015 10:17 pm
Sailboat: MacGregor 26X
Location: Australia

Re: Tacking in high winds

Post by sailboatmike »

I beg to differ Boat, the IMOCA 60's in the Vendee Globe spent much of their time on the second and third reef coming through the Southern Ocean, even the Sydney to Hobart 100 footers get reefed down in a blow, reefing isnt just about heeling and boat speed its also about reducing stress on the boat.

Many gung ho racers refuse to reef and hence you see many gung ho racers dismasted, rule one in any race is you have to get to the finish in order to have any chance of winning, not many get to the finish after they are dismasted. 2 Years ago Wild Oats 11 was racing Sydney to Hobart to make it a record number of wins, they didnt reef soon enough and blew out their main. As stated before racing boats have many ways which they use to reduce heel, such as pumping water ballast to the wind ward side and canting the keel, why would they bother carrying that extra weight if the heel wasnt going to slow them down?

Im not against heeling by any shape or form, in fact in light winds the recommended way to get optimum speed is putting you traveller to windward and putting weight on the windward side to create a slight heel to windward, but sailing with excessive heel does nothing but slow the boat, that is an undeniable proven fact, just like the sky is blue and the earth is round
User avatar
Neo
Admiral
Posts: 1093
Joined: Fri Jan 30, 2015 4:29 pm
Sailboat: MacGregor 26M
Location: Central Coast, NSW, Australia

Re: Tacking in high winds

Post by Neo »

sailboatmike wrote:reefing isnt just about heeling and boat speed its also about reducing stress on the boat.
Hmmm.... This prompts the question "How much heavy heeling can our masts take?" ..... assuming the rigging is all in good order.

Good information Mike.... I've also gotta try the traveller leeward in light winds .... get lots of those in the morning in my local lake (Brisbane Water).
User avatar
Highlander
Admiral
Posts: 5982
Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2005 8:25 pm
Sailboat: MacGregor 26M
Location: Maccutter26M 2008 75HP Merc. 4/S Victoria BC. Can. ' An Hileanto'ir III '
Contact:

Re: Tacking in high winds

Post by Highlander »

User avatar
BOAT
Admiral
Posts: 4967
Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2012 5:12 pm
Sailboat: MacGregor 26M
Location: Oceanside, CA MACMJ213 2013 ETEC60

Re: Tacking in high winds

Post by BOAT »

sailboatmike wrote: the Vendee Globe spent much of their time on the second and third reef coming through the Southern Ocean, even the Sydney to Hobart 100 footers get reefed down in a blow, reefing isnt just about heeling and boat speed its also about reducing stress on the boat.

Many gung ho racers refuse to reef and hence you see many gung ho racers dismasted, rule one in any race is you have to get to the finish in order to have any chance of winning, not many get to the finish after they are dismasted. 2 Years ago Wild Oats 11 was racing Sydney to Hobart to make it a record number of wins, they didnt reef soon enough and blew out their main.
You sort of made my point for me - these guys are NOT reefing to gain speed - they are reefing to prevent destroying their boats. I already told you guys that the only reason i reef is because the wind is blowing too hard - that is why I reef - because I'm in a bad blow, NOT because I'm worried about heeling. That's why the racers reef - to keep the boats from breaking - not to go faster.

Like I said - 43 degrees on the M boat is NO BIG DEAL and if you want to reef that fine - in fact if your on an X boat I highly recommend it because it appears to increase speed, but on the M boat it does not seem to matter. I have never even heard of an M boat dismasting because of a wind or reef problem - if the wind is that strong and you have all the sails out the boat will just lay on it's side until the sails rip apart. That's one of the things I like about the MAC - it's so light that the boat does not have enough weight to break it's own rigging - you can literally pick up the boat out of the water with the mast - it you tried that on any other boat the rigging would break.
User avatar
sailboatmike
Admiral
Posts: 1597
Joined: Thu Mar 12, 2015 10:17 pm
Sailboat: MacGregor 26X
Location: Australia

Re: Tacking in high winds

Post by sailboatmike »

I think your misreading, you said "racers dont reef:, I said yes they do for reasons including protecting the boat from damage and maintaining speed.

As stated before you can say what you want but its a fact just like the earth is round that upright is faster

Its has been written about in 100's of books on performance sailing, I cant find a single reference that says sail your boat om its ear because its faster, most say reef and reef early because when you think its time to reef its normally too late.

BWY recommend putting the first reef in at 12knts of wind, https://shop.bwyachts.com/category-s/356.htm but follows the reef early doctrine
User avatar
BOAT
Admiral
Posts: 4967
Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2012 5:12 pm
Sailboat: MacGregor 26M
Location: Oceanside, CA MACMJ213 2013 ETEC60

Re: Tacking in high winds

Post by BOAT »

I was trying to say that racers don't reef to go faster. They reef to prevent capsize, dismasting, disaster and so forth, but speed is really really low on the list for a racer to reef his boat because he knows that reefing will probably result in going slower - that's why the "gung-ho" guys are so reticent to reef their boats - they want to faster- not slower.

Reading books about sailing - this I have done a lot - and I can tell you that all the books will say that if your sailing your boat at 43 degrees your in DANGEROUS TERRITORY! And guess what - the books are RIGHT!

The books are all written about KEEL BOATS - and if you sail ANY keel boat in that way your are really stressing out the rigging and your going to break the boat because there are thousands of pounds of ballast down there in the water that is way too heavy for your mast and sail to push around - that's why all the other boats in the marinas have huge thick masts and giant chicken heads on top and multiple back stays and really heavy rigging, and guess what - in a hard blow they STILL BREAK! Yes, the books are right if your on any NORMAL sailboat it's bad to sail the heel angle at 40 degrees - that's true. It's just not the case on the M boat - it's no big deal.

I understand all the safety books and so forth about telling you to reef your boat for safety. And on small light boats such as ours there conditions where reefing can help with speed if your getting knocked down, and also depending on the type of boat your on. I do not believe in these "one rule fits all boats" things that people say in books and the such. If you think you should reef at 12 knots that's fine, but not me.

I would never reef in 12 knots of wind - I think that's ridiculous -
User avatar
Neo
Admiral
Posts: 1093
Joined: Fri Jan 30, 2015 4:29 pm
Sailboat: MacGregor 26M
Location: Central Coast, NSW, Australia

Re: Tacking in high winds

Post by Neo »

Hey BOAT and Mike .... You're kinda both saying the same thing, just from two different tacks :D
But I think your'e at a point now where it would be good to "agree to differ" .... PLEASE ! 8)

I for one have greatly appreciated the knowledge and experience you've both provided here .... Thnaks :)
User avatar
Highlander
Admiral
Posts: 5982
Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2005 8:25 pm
Sailboat: MacGregor 26M
Location: Maccutter26M 2008 75HP Merc. 4/S Victoria BC. Can. ' An Hileanto'ir III '
Contact:

Re: Tacking in high winds

Post by Highlander »

User avatar
BOAT
Admiral
Posts: 4967
Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2012 5:12 pm
Sailboat: MacGregor 26M
Location: Oceanside, CA MACMJ213 2013 ETEC60

Re: Tacking in high winds

Post by BOAT »

Image

Image

Image
User avatar
BOAT
Admiral
Posts: 4967
Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2012 5:12 pm
Sailboat: MacGregor 26M
Location: Oceanside, CA MACMJ213 2013 ETEC60

Re: Tacking in high winds

Post by BOAT »

Here is the Wild Oats boat:

Image

I really like this one -

Image
User avatar
BOAT
Admiral
Posts: 4967
Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2012 5:12 pm
Sailboat: MacGregor 26M
Location: Oceanside, CA MACMJ213 2013 ETEC60

Re: Tacking in high winds

Post by BOAT »

I have always really really liked the Hugo Boss boats:

Image

Image

Image
User avatar
BOAT
Admiral
Posts: 4967
Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2012 5:12 pm
Sailboat: MacGregor 26M
Location: Oceanside, CA MACMJ213 2013 ETEC60

Re: Tacking in high winds

Post by BOAT »

Image


Image
User avatar
Jimmyt
Admiral
Posts: 3166
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 9:52 am
Sailboat: MacGregor 26M
Location: Mobile AL 2013 26M, 60 Etec

Re: Tacking in high winds

Post by Jimmyt »

Boat,
You're a wild man. The Rothschild boat appears to have a reef in. Looks like there may be a reef in a couple of others upon close inspection. Then, you show one Hugo with a reef - at an amazing angle of heel and then another upside down...

Did you change sides in the discussion, or are you just messing with us?

Beautiful and exciting shots. It would be amazing just being rail meat on one of those. Really love that last shot - flying low...

Jim
Post Reply