Forum Home
IntroductionBrowse
Our MacGregorExploringArticlesAbout this Website
ManualsDealer InfoSailing LinksSupport this Website
Forum Home

I know everything ... but have a rudder question.

A forum for discussing topics relating to MacGregor Powersailor Sailboats

Moderators: Paul S, tangentair, beene, Heath_Mod, Hamin' X, kmclemore, Catigale

I know everything ... but have a rudder question.

Postby Signaleer » Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:54 pm

Ok, maybe I don't.

So, I have searched the forum or rudders, ida, ruddercraft, etc.

I own an X ... a white one. The fastest model.

I really, really, really could benefit from someone talking to me about rudders. The other day I was out and the rudders just ... seemed like they were the weak point.

I don't honestly know why. Are the IDA rudders bigger? Different shape? (More foil?) etc. Do they make a real difference on the X? I'd love to hear.

Thanks in advance you degenerates.

Ed
User avatar
Signaleer
First Officer
 
Posts: 246
Joined: Sat Feb 14, 2015 2:58 pm
Location: Foley, Alabama...2002 26x & 2002 90 HP Mercury Salt Water 2-stroke
Sailboat: MacGregor 26X

Re: I know everything ... but have a rudder question.

Postby sailboatmike » Tue Jun 12, 2018 10:14 pm

I have learnt (because I know everything :P ) that when the boat is not behaving well to always check the rudders are HARD DOWN. Even a slight bit of movement backwards makes the boats handling questionable at best.

I'm still designing my new rudders but I'm seriously thinking they need some undercut so they can go slightly under the boat
User avatar
sailboatmike
Admiral
 
Posts: 1599
Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2015 12:17 am
Location: Australia
Sailboat: MacGregor 26X

Re: I know everything ... but have a rudder question.

Postby beene » Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:53 am

Signaleer wrote:Ok, maybe I don't.

So, I have searched the forum or rudders, ida, ruddercraft, etc.

I own an X ... a white one. The fastest model.

I really, really, really could benefit from someone talking to me about rudders. The other day I was out and the rudders just ... seemed like they were the weak point.

I don't honestly know why. Are the IDA rudders bigger? Different shape? (More foil?) etc. Do they make a real difference on the X? I'd love to hear.

Thanks in advance you degenerates.

Ed


Hi Ed

I had a set of IDA rudders that were longer, thicker, wider.
They were made of plastic, not fiberglass.
They snapped right below the rudder bracket.
Not fun.

Bought stock replacement rudder when one of the original fiberglass ones also snapped from rudder craft as they have the molds from Roger.

I'd stick with the stock glass ones

G
User avatar
beene
Site Admin
 
Posts: 2553
Joined: Tue Sep 19, 2006 7:31 pm
Location: Ontario Canada, '07 26M, Merc 75 4s PEGASUS
Sailboat: MacGregor 26M

Re: I know everything ... but have a rudder question.

Postby DaveC426913 » Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:06 am

Signaleer wrote: the rudders just ... seemed like they were the weak point.

Can you be just a scootch more specific?

Weak in what sense?
Were you motoring? Sailing?
Was your CB down?
Were the rudders fully locked down?
DaveC426913
Admiral
 
Posts: 1267
Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2008 10:05 am
Location: Toronto Canada
Sailboat: MacGregor 26X

Re: I know everything ... but have a rudder question.

Postby LeePierce » Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:07 am

I bought a replacement rudder from Idea about a year or two ago.
While it is a tiny bit wider, and the holes are in slightly different locations, I do not see any legitimate difference between my remaining stock rudder and my new one.
I actually called them and asked if they still made the "high performance" one, and they did not.
Guessing the performance design not holding up might be the reason, but it does seem they could have made their high performance shape using the wood/fiberglass methods of the stock one.

I am also wondering what the poster meant, I usually balance the pressure between the sails so the rudders do not have much force on them.
Every time a gust overpowers my comfort level, I have plenty of rudder to turn into the wind.
Have never experienced them being hard to turn, and I never disconnect my engine.
Only issue I have ever had is if I leave my engine down, I some times have issues turning through a tack, but I consider that a user issue, not the fault of the rudders.
LeePierce
Deckhand
 
Posts: 29
Joined: Tue Apr 04, 2017 3:14 pm
Sailboat: MacGregor 26X

Re: I know everything ... but have a rudder question.

Postby Tomfoolery » Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:42 am

LeePierce wrote:I am also wondering what the poster meant, I usually balance the pressure between the sails so the rudders do not have much force on them.

This is big. The :macx: is far from a performance sailboat to start with, so it's important for speed to maintain a balanced sail plan if you don't want to be dragging those rudders through the water instead of slicing through with minimal drag. It's important for any boat, of course, but there's just not that much to work with on the :macx: (the :macm: at least has a larger main and better hull shape for sailing), plus it just feels better to have the boat not trying to round up all the time if you let the wheel go.
User avatar
Tomfoolery
Admiral
 
Posts: 5065
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2011 9:42 am
Location: Rochester, NY '99X BF50 'Tomfoolery'
Sailboat: MacGregor 26X

Re: I know everything ... but have a rudder question.

Postby Cougar » Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:45 am

Because I mostly sail in (very) shallow waters I never sail with the rudders locked down. I did it once and snapped the lower fairlead that same afternoon. So I take advantage of the kick-up functionality. :) I added some PTFE washers to the rudders to minimize friction. And I never noticed any difference in behaviour with the rudders locked down vs almost down.
User avatar
Cougar
Engineer
 
Posts: 137
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2015 6:02 am
Location: Leeuwarden, Netherlands
Sailboat: MacGregor 26X

Re: I know everything ... but have a rudder question.

Postby whgoffrn » Wed Jun 13, 2018 10:13 am

I had rudders made by jo woodworks out of texas.....I went that route after talking to them at ida rudders who even admitted there MAY be a SLIGHT strength difference but not much....I had jo wood works make mine out of white oak ....MUCH stronger than stock..... white oak is a very strong wood ..... however you must do something with the brackets if u get stronger rudders ....and ideally should also put backing plates on the grudgeon bracket that bolts through the stern .....if u look for my post on weak links in macgregor it shows pics....rudders were 180 a piece and very much worth the cost I feel
whgoffrn
First Officer
 
Posts: 484
Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2014 11:55 pm
Sailboat: MacGregor 26X

Re: I know everything ... but have a rudder question.

Postby Signaleer » Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:31 am

Thanks for all the very informative respsonses.

Please asked for more detail, so here it is..

My experience sailing is (in order) Aquacat, Hobie 14, Prindle 16, Laser racing, Pearson 26, and Macgregor 26. I've also qualifed on the J24 and Catalina 36 with US Sailing. I've got (I think) adequate rudder time.

I haven't had the boat on the water in 18 months and recently had to basically rebuild the damn thing mast-up. it now has a beach cat mast (28 foot) extrusion and J24 spreaders with the thru-mast stock (much better design). I went out for a shake down cruise and the wind did come up. I was having a very hard time getting the sails balanced. I could have probably adjusted the jib cars, and a reef would not have hurt, but when tacking I simply felt like i couldn't get the control I wanted.

Yes the X is an interesting animal to sail and I was rusty with a new crew - over tacking etc. and once stalled or slowed, its a bitch.

I kept trying to balance the sails, etc. but was not able to nearly as much as I want to.

This may be 'rust' and we were overpowered for a section of the sail, no doubt. But my mind just kept going back to my P26 days. I felt like I had TONS of more control. I also have 2 different rudders on it - the original spade (swept-back) rudder and then a performance rudder (after market). It was a dream.

I was considering making my own rudders out of carbon fiber and (I suspect I'd need) some wood internally. I have 2 J24 rudders sitting in my back yard - but they weight so much it would add to the already heavy ass I have with 37 gallons of fuel and a 90HP motor. :) :cry: :evil:

So, I'm just wondering about something that i could change that would make sailing or dare i say perhaps performance sialing more viable.

Rudders is where this came to mind.

Ed.
User avatar
Signaleer
First Officer
 
Posts: 246
Joined: Sat Feb 14, 2015 2:58 pm
Location: Foley, Alabama...2002 26x & 2002 90 HP Mercury Salt Water 2-stroke
Sailboat: MacGregor 26X

Re: I know everything ... but have a rudder question.

Postby whgoffrn » Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:45 pm

Not sure how much you will be able to change but if you change and put more surface area to the rudder whether its length or width it will compromise an already weak rudder (and bracket) lending itself to snap easier in following seas but others have done it.... if the boat is rounding up that's largely due to mast rake
whgoffrn
First Officer
 
Posts: 484
Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2014 11:55 pm
Sailboat: MacGregor 26X

Re: I know everything ... but have a rudder question.

Postby LeePierce » Wed Jun 13, 2018 2:52 pm

Seems I have read many comments on the X sailing better with weight in the bow.
Could be the fuel/motor's weight is upsetting the balance.
Might be the power boat back end is too deep, vs the hull presenting more of a sailboat shape if the back is less deep.
I have the origional 4s honda 50 and only carry about 6 gal as I am a lake sailor, so I guess I am as close to designed as possible.
LeePierce
Deckhand
 
Posts: 29
Joined: Tue Apr 04, 2017 3:14 pm
Sailboat: MacGregor 26X

Re: I know everything ... but have a rudder question.

Postby Signaleer » Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:41 pm

So...
Thanks for the thoughts. Not sure I agree.

First, my rig is tuned. Most of the issue was that I was overpowered in that we didn't install a reef point on the new rig for the shakedown cruise.

However, these rudders are small for this boat - there's no other way to see it.

Thanks for raising the issue of rudders/rudder brakets braking. I would probably upgrade everythign if I did it.

And as for weight forward in the X - that's true. The rear of the X creates a low-pressure force that can slow the boat for sailing performance based on the flat hull and right angle. If you can get the boat leaning more on the bow, thus liftin the aft, the low-pressure forsce is reduced and would sail better. I also fly around at 26 or 27 MPH :) So.... I'll figure it out.

I still think it needs bigger rudders and centerboard :)

Ed.
User avatar
Signaleer
First Officer
 
Posts: 246
Joined: Sat Feb 14, 2015 2:58 pm
Location: Foley, Alabama...2002 26x & 2002 90 HP Mercury Salt Water 2-stroke
Sailboat: MacGregor 26X

Re: I know everything ... but have a rudder question.

Postby whgoffrn » Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:44 pm

Oh didn't see the part where u said it was a non stock mast so you did the mast stays whatever rake u wanted etc etc was assuming stock mast with stock rake 4 degrees .... I had bwy put a 2nd reef in mine for I think 125 bux but yeah the rudders do have little surface area.... I've seen several people make them but most break because it ultimately attaches to the same bracket and all that pressure gets focused on that one spot .... I went with white oak because it's still relatively cheap and still has a high breaking strength yet still bends .... I have the stainless steel brackets and had a stainless lip welded to them so I can use big vices on them to add strength although this was just a cheap fix if I would have wanted to spend the money I may have opted for a total redesign with thicker plates but I'm sure that would cost lot of $$$ ....I have not done the backing plates but I've made out my plans to add thick stainless plates on the inside to the bolts that hold the outboard....... from what I've seen most people bend or break a bracket before they break a rudder although that happens to so with more surface area it will put more stress on the brackets so whichever design you chose the most difficult portion is to tackle the bracket and decide how you want to do it......I think the x is much easier than the M because the M is recessed into the hull where the x just sticks off the back but it still will require careful thought of how you want to tackle this common breaking point
Last edited by whgoffrn on Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.
whgoffrn
First Officer
 
Posts: 484
Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2014 11:55 pm
Sailboat: MacGregor 26X

Re: I know everything ... but have a rudder question.

Postby whgoffrn » Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:51 pm

As far as centerboard I'm sure you could make it out of different material (do a search for madmike) he had a HIGHLY modified mac back in the day with carbon fiber mast rudders and centerboard even amas..... and I seen a pic where he redid his centerboard but it made it difficult to trailer because the board stuck down another few inches even when retracted.....you cant make the centerboard longer without some seriously big hull modifications so only option is to make it wider which makes it hit the beams of the trailer ..... I considered sending my centerboard off but usually if I hit a nasty squall I point into the wind to attempt to slow me down and if squall was seriously dangerous I'd just throw my sea anchor that's collecting dust and never been used and pull up all boards so they don't snap

If u do a wood whether its white oak or mohaganny they have to be sanded and revarnished once a year unless u cover them in glass so I've opted to be lazy and leave my centerboard stock
whgoffrn
First Officer
 
Posts: 484
Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2014 11:55 pm
Sailboat: MacGregor 26X

Re: I know everything ... but have a rudder question.

Postby Cougar » Thu Jun 14, 2018 5:35 am

LeePierce wrote:Seems I have read many comments on the X sailing better with weight in the bow.
Could be the fuel/motor's weight is upsetting the balance.
Might be the power boat back end is too deep, vs the hull presenting more of a sailboat shape if the back is less deep.
I have the origional 4s honda 50 and only carry about 6 gal as I am a lake sailor, so I guess I am as close to designed as possible.


That would explain why I have such pleasant experiences with sailing the X. I have a 100 liter water tank in the bow and only a small outboard (Yamaha F15) at the stern. Looking at the boat when it's docked with no-one aboard, I can even see it leaning a bit forward. But it's a fine sailer which regularly gives me around 6 knots boat speed.
User avatar
Cougar
Engineer
 
Posts: 137
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2015 6:02 am
Location: Leeuwarden, Netherlands
Sailboat: MacGregor 26X

Next

Return to MacGregor Powersailor Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 4 guests

Copyright 2004 - 2018 © HK Innovations