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Re: Last Sail of Season - Rudder Pivot Bolt Failure

Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 12:29 pm
by dthiesmeyer
It would be very unusual for a 3/8" stainless steel pivot bolt, in a stainless steel bracket, in fresh water, to break under those conditions, IMO.
Were the pivot bolt holes deformed?
My best guess is that the rudder hit something.

HI Bill,

As a matter of fact, the pivot bolt holes were not deformed. The rudder bracket was bent similar to the picture posted by jimmy Alonso although not as severe. I do count myself as very lucky to have this happen at the end of the season on my last sail.

By the way, my 2010 26M came from your place. I bought it five years ago in Wisconsin. Thank you for your rigging package!!!!

Thank you,

Dave

Re: Last Sail of Season - Rudder Pivot Bolt Failure

Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 6:46 pm
by Bill at BOATS 4 SAIL
The biggest negative of my Mac 19 was that the rudders did not go very deep into the water and it just did not steer very well. I ordered a new pair of rudders, several years ago, from Ida Sailor (before it became Rudder Craft but they sent me two different sizes, did not look appreciably different, so I never used them.
So, I made 2 new rudders, shaped more like the ones on my Mac 26X, out of aluminum lee boards from a C scow. that go much deeper in the water, and fold up right against the transom.
Worst case sea-nario, I think is that one (or both) will bend, but not the bracket, and should be able to be bent back into shape. I often pull the one on the high side out of the water.
I took my Mac19 down to FL last winter, and left it down there, but did not get a chance to use them. I'm flying dow later this month to see how they work.

Re: Last Sail of Season - Rudder Pivot Bolt Failure

Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 9:54 pm
by Ixneigh
I haven't done the be all end all fix.. yet. I just upgraded the rudders and pins.

The fix is as follows. It entails making a second pivot point about halfway up the transom. From this pivot point. Cheeks of rigid material extend down to each side of the existing bracket and pivot bolt. The bolt goes through the cheeks and original brackets. The bottoms of the cheeks could be heavy SS plate, bolted to wood or glass upper parts. The observant person will note that, you cant attach the cheeks to a regular pintle, because the pivot point is actually inside the boat. To have everything line up properly, a recess must be cut in the transom, with a box made around the pivot point to keep the water out. Did I say this was not for the faint of heart. Having two widely spaced pivot attachments will reduce strain on the bearing part of the so called water box.
Insofar as reinforcing the inside of the transom around the water boxes, the only thing that would need that is the lowest rudder fitting. Adding 10 layers of biax in that area should do. Like an 10x10 area. That fitting and the uppermost fitting should take nearly all load off the water box area. Right now, the water box, as it is one of only two supports, is carrying substantial load.
A lot of work? Yes. But not as much as my two opening ports. The boat would then have a steering system I would feel fine about running her off in strong conditions, maybe even enjoying it.
Ix

Re: Last Sail of Season - Rudder Pivot Bolt Failure

Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 9:27 am
by BOAT
Would it not be a lot easier to just add a rudder to the motor?

Re: Last Sail of Season - Rudder Pivot Bolt Failure

Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 1:01 pm
by whgoffrn
An x is easy to upgrade rudders and entire assembly ive never looked at the inside of an M to see if there was an easier way yo do it but id imagine the most cost effective way to still have a much sturdier assembly is the wood rudders from jowoodworks at 180 a piece as far as the brackets id take them to a welding shop and just have them make new ones in essence exactly the same only 3x the thickness... as far as backing plates without looking at what there is to work with to know if there is an easier way id just add more and more glass at least 2 feet in diameter tapering out from the bolt holtes and a big backing plate to distrubute the loads across a larger area .....a decent amount of work but not too bad

Re: Last Sail of Season - Rudder Pivot Bolt Failure

Posted: Sun Nov 04, 2018 2:16 pm
by kurz
Ixneigh wrote:I haven't done the be all end all fix.. yet. I just upgraded the rudders and pins.

The fix is as follows. It entails making a second pivot point about halfway up the transom. From this pivot point. Cheeks of rigid material extend down to each side of the existing bracket and pivot bolt. The bolt goes through the cheeks and original brackets. The bottoms of the cheeks could be heavy SS plate, bolted to wood or glass upper parts. The observant person will note that, you cant attach the cheeks to a regular pintle, because the pivot point is actually inside the boat. To have everything line up properly, a recess must be cut in the transom, with a box made around the pivot point to keep the water out. Did I say this was not for the faint of heart. Having two widely spaced pivot attachments will reduce strain on the bearing part of the so called water box.
Insofar as reinforcing the inside of the transom around the water boxes, the only thing that would need that is the lowest rudder fitting. Adding 10 layers of biax in that area should do. Like an 10x10 area. That fitting and the uppermost fitting should take nearly all load off the water box area. Right now, the water box, as it is one of only two supports, is carrying substantial load.
A lot of work? Yes. But not as much as my two opening ports. The boat would then have a steering system I would feel fine about running her off in strong conditions, maybe even enjoying it.
Ix
I guess quite a job in glassing...
So why not going on with your idea? So you make the system longer to reach the top of the boat. So you can easier go to the pivot point. So it must be possible to avoid big glassing work.
Still not easy to do. ???

Re: Last Sail of Season - Rudder Pivot Bolt Failure

Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 8:57 am
by whgoffrn
Glassing the wooden rudders isnt necesssy but if you have wood rudders the maker said to sand and varnish once per year depending on how much it gets used...mine are also white oak rudders but i only took mine out once this year for the trip to the keys so ill prob wait 2 years since lately ive been too busy to use mine frequently

Re: Last Sail of Season - Rudder Pivot Bolt Failure

Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 7:10 pm
by Ixneigh
Bringing the rudders to the top of the cockpit combing and making the pivot point there is a interesting idea. I'll look at it.
Glassing the rudders was required for the way I use the boat. She's in the water at least half the year.

Ux