Suggestions on use of a Table Saw

[tlgibson97]

I cringe just thinking about it. I have a 10" Ryobi table saw that scares me more than any tool I have. It's not particulary unsafe but because it's lightweight and not built particularly well I worry about cutting with it. Because it has one of those clip on fences it's not 100% paralell to the blade. So anything longer than about 16" starts to bind when ripping.

When things go wrong, they go wrong fast and are not forgiving at all. Good table saws aren't cheap and take up more space than I currently have to devote to one. I look hard at the SawStop brand saws just for the added safety factor that I hope would never have to be used.

!	kmclemore:
	Folks, this thread started originally from the thread relating to Phil M's unfortunate and very serious injury while using a saw. I split this portion off so that future forum users can more easily find the advice on how to use a saw. The original thread regarding Phil's injury is here: Mac Mod Gone Terribly Wrong.

[BOAT]

The only thing that scares me more than my radial arm saw is my table saw.

The radial arm saw has thrown stuff right at my forehead missing my eye by about 2 inches. I will not even rip on the radial arm saw even though it has all the articulations to do it I refuse to rip on that saw.

I cringe whenever I need to rip wood. I try to use a hand held BATTERY POWERED circular saw as much as I possibly can.

When I do need to run wood pieces through the table saw LONG WISE I always use sticks to hold the wood because too many times the saw has thrown a piece of wood out like a spear. It scares the crap out of me to use the table saw when I use it to rip.

It’s crazy nut’s because my dad made furniture and boat stuff and all kinds of things for 50 years using the same electric table saw and he never got hurt once. I watched him flow wood through that thing like water over and over and over again without a hitch.

I just don’t know how he did it.

For me – I will only use sticks to push the wood through – I am too afraid to put my hands near the table saw.

I hope your hand heals up and is back to working well eventually - your story is something I always fear was going to happen to me - (and still might).

[seahouse]

Briefly, BOAT, but ask if you want more details...

You should have NO problem ripping, even thin slivers if the saw is set up properly.

Check that the blade is parallel to the milled slots in the table. If you are familiar with a radial arm saw, you will know that there is a large number of adjustments, alignments, and tweaked settings that need to be right before it will perform perfectly. There are fewer things to wink over on a table saw, but this is one of them that is important. But your Dad likely would have set that up correctly; once set they tend to stay set.

Use a ripping blade, as opposed to a combination, (or crosscut of course) blade. I like carbide- inserted blades with an anti- kickback tooth profile.

Set your blade height just above what is needed to cut the thickness of the stock. NO higher!

When you set your fence, make sure the lash in the fence rack goes in the direction that makes the space between the fence and the blade diverge as the stock moves through it, and lock it there. I suspect this might be your issue. If the fence is not set this way it will pinch the cut stock against the back side ( that's the part of the blade where the teeth are heading in a direction that is toward your body) of the blade.

These are basics, but I know that one man's basics can be another man's advanced techniques.

I have made cuts from the rear of a table saw forward, usually a totally dangerous thing to do, but done it in a totally safe manner. It's about knowing the details where the devil is hiding.

I've likely done as many mods to my cabinet saw (inherited from my father) as I have to my Mac.
-B.

[BOAT]

I try to get the fence exactly parallel with the blade, but you're saying it's okay for the fence to be slightly open at the end where the teeth enter the table? Is that right? Maybe that's the trick?

I know if the fence pinches the wood into the blade in any way it will be big trouble.

Another big problem are angle cuts - if the top of the blade is leaning towards the fence and the wood bumps up for some reason it gets pinched so you always need to have the blade leaning AWAY from the fence on those kinds of angle rip things. I hate those.

When you say into the rear of the saw you're talking about putting the wood in the same direction the blade is going, right?? Have I got that right?

I have made a lot of wood stuff but I'm still scared of the table saw.

[seahouse]

No, the other way. The distance between the teeth and the fence where the stock feeds in (the "front" of the saw, closest to you) needs to be slightly smaller than the distance between the teeth and the fence where the stock exits the cut (at the "back" of the saw, farthest from you).

The fence and blade cannot be perfectly parallel because then there will be no clearance where the stock exits the blade cutting area.

Right about angling away from the fence. When possible. It sometimes isn't. Again though, you need to keep aware that the blade has clearance where it exits the work, and not make the fence (which dictates the precise path of the workpiece) exactly parallel to the blade.

Of course, blade guards and riving knives are out of the question for cuts like these.

I'll post later a picture.

Update Edit: I decided to not post pictures because it will take us way off topic for a sailboat forum. Even for me. But as usual I'll be happy to clarify anything.

Note that I was not advocating feeding from the back of the saw (climb cutting) as a normal procedure, but saying that when it was necessary I have done it safely, and it is possible to do it quite safely using the correct setup. Maybe when I wrote that part it was confusing?

[BOAT]

seahouse, I want to make sure I understand what your saying - the top of the blade rotates towards the BACK of the saw or towards the FRONT of the saw??

(Ron, if you go to San Diego I will help you sail the boat with mastreb - maybe he will let us sail his big boat).

[seahouse]

Sorry for not being clear, the top of the blade rotates towards the front as I'm describing it here.

Also forgot to add above to use the table slots to more easily judge the amount that the fence is parallel (or not) to the blade.

[RobertB]

OK, this is an area I have many years experience in.
Just to get the minor stuff out of the way - radial arm saws scare me (and yes, I own one). The reason is that this is the only saw that wants to chase you down. To safely use one, you need a negative rake hook blade that you literally need to pull through the cut.
Now, on table saws. I have my grandfather's one, in use since before WWII. I have taken it apart, rebuilt it, and tuned it up. The whole thing about leaving the blade a little skewed so there is relief at the back of the cut is just a way to avoid the hard work of tuning it up correctly. Fact is, a table saw will eventually be used with the fence on either side of the blade if you ever make angle cuts since the blade only tilts one way. A relief on one side is interference on the other. Only set up the saw with a slight relief if you will always use the fence on the same side - always!
Proper way: adjust the blade so it is perfectly parallel to the miter gauge slot. Use a micrometer. A good blade has relief between the body and the teeth (the teeth should be a bit wider than the blade) so that blade contact at the back side of the cut will only be against the sharp (hopefully) teeth. Worst case is a bit of burning on the stock - this is most likely to happen when the stock was not straight to start.
Earlier I stated that a radial arm saw wants to chase you down. The table saw just wants to throw things at you. Easy to avoid - just stand to the side a bit. [And invest in a really good rip fence. I bought the Vega when it first came out many years ago.] Also, make sure your arbor is straight and the face is true. Make sure there is no slop in the miter gauge slot. And did I mention to use a top of the line rip fence?
Now, if you are really concerned - there is a line of saws now marketed that have a one time break mechanism built in that will stop the blade in a fraction of a rotation should any flesh come in contact. About $80 each time it fires.

[seahouse]

Hey Robert -

I have my grandfather's one, in use since before WWII

Yeah, you have to get into commercial machines to get that sort of quality and solidness today.

The whole thing about leaving the blade a little skewed so there is relief at the back of the cut...etc

Who said this? Someone in this thread? I sure didn't; and I would not recommend doing this. Maybe you misread? I suggested winking the fence over a bit, and the fence can be used to rip on either side of the blade this way without problem. The two are very different things.

Only set up the saw with a slight relief if you will always use the fence on the same side

I'm not sure why someone would do this, or why you suggest it -it really limits the quality of the cut (binding, burning, chipping) versatility of the saw, not to mention it's dangerous. If you're going to the trouble of setting up the saw, it takes no more effort to do it properly. The saw blade needs to be set to run parallel to the slots in the table. Period.

I also pointed out that setting the blade parallel to the milled slots is a good idea for ripping, as they can be used to reference the position of the fence (such as by quick measurement). But...

At the same time it's important to be aware that referencing the fence relative to the blade is really all that matters in the situation we're discussing (ripping). So, if the blade does happen to be not parallel to the slots in the table, it has no real relevance to ripping, as the slots are not used during the process. The slots will come into play when used for crosscutting, of course.

Tip: A quick way to check for fence to blade "parallelness" (is that a word?) is to bring the fence just up to the (stopped, and full "up") blade, set it, and check it with a paper (or other) feeler gauge to one tooth at the front of the saw, turn the blade, and check the space at the back of the saw to the same tooth. The measurement won't be a full 180 degree turn of the blade apart, but it's close enough for a quick check.

Yeah, when crosscutting, the radial arm saw "climb" cuts and pushes the motor head toward the operator. My personal "safe" technique is to use a radial arm saw with your elbow locked straight and rotate from your shoulder to make the cut. In the event that the motor tries to "attack" you, it will just push your body away from it instead. I also find that the locked elbow technique allows more precise control over the feed rate when you want a clean finish on the cut.

Now, if you are really concerned - there is a line of saws now marketed that have a one time break mechanism built in that will stop the blade in a fraction of a rotation should any flesh come in contact. About $80 each time

Yeah - that's the one in the video of the hyperlink in my first post above, and it retracts the blade at the same time. That one's more about lawyers and corruption than about saw users, but I don't get into politics.

Easy to avoid - just stand to the side a bit

Good advice! And watch yer fingers.

[RobertB]

And what I did not mention, to avoid the wrath of the safety gods, is that I have never use guards with my saw. I have always felt that guards hide my view of the saw blade and that is to me a bigger safety concern. My saw came with a blade guard but the plastic was so old, there was no way to see through it. There are many, probably very good, guards available, but I have always tried to be be very aware of the blade. My college woodworker teacher (who has lost fingers on a table saw) taught us a tip I have used ever since. Use a metal awl to push stock through the saw to keep fingers away from the blade. This sounds counter-intuitive but the awl will not slip. I use a sacrificial push stick when there is not room for an awl.
Three other tips: 1) plastic zero clearance table insert for 90 degree cuts (need wider insert for angled cuts), 2) never push lumber through that is not straight/flat against the fence, and 3) use the biggest motor you can. I have used contractor saws I can not even rip a 2x4 with and these are a dangerous waste of money. I use a 2 hp motor (real, not developed) on 240 VAC.
Oh, and did I mention a real good rip fence? Vega, Biesmeyer, and Delta are the long term names to look for. Biesmeyer is stock on many and copied on others.

[Steve K]

Seahouse said:

When you set your fence, make sure the lash in the fence rack goes in the direction that makes the space between the fence and the blade diverge as the stock moves through it, and lock it there. I suspect this might be your issue. If the fence is not set this way it will pinch the cut stock against the back side ( that's the part of the blade where the teeth are heading in a direction that is toward your body) of the blade.

tlgibson97,
I have a Ryobi also.
This suggestion from Seahouse is the key for this saw in particular. You can make perfect, safe rip cuts, even giving just a little smidgen of room at the back end of the fence (1/32 to 1/16). I only use carbide tip blades in mine. The Ryobi saws are not well adjusted out of the box, so you need to set them up, before using them (the manual gives instructions for doing so)
Always have a counter brush handi. Brush off the table before cutting. Saw dust on the table makes your work piece tend to slide around. I do have an extra table extension for my saw (8 or 10 inches wide... it helps). I also keep several, pre cut push sticks near the saw at all times (scrap stock with just a little notch cut in one end). Use these to push the last end of the stock through the saw, instead of your fingers. And only push the stock through the saw on the fence side of the blade. I never stand directly in front of the blade. I normally position myself to the right of the fence, with the blade to the left of the fence, or visa versa.

I usually cut 4X8 sheet goods with a skill saw, using a clamp on rip guide, but I have no issues with running 8 foot long pieces through my Ryobi, no more than about half a sheet (two feet wide, or less). Use a tail roller for this, that sits a couple feet behind the saw.
Just a couple days ago I cut several 3/4 inch trim pieces, from a ten foot 2x10 clear Cedar board. I have ripped thin pieces from hard wood like oak boards in the same manner.

A very sharp blade is much more safe than a dull one imho. Change that blade if it is getting dull


I qualify all the above by saying, I've been wood working (not professionally) since I was about 12 years old.
Never become complacent with any machinery, particularly machines that cut hard stuff like butter

I don't care what they say, I will not try to rip wood on a radial arm saw (particularly not mine).
By the way....... I use different blades in this case, but I find both saws cut Aluminum very nicely (with correct carbide blade....... and stock up to about 3/16 thick)

Above all, be careful and pay attention

Best Breezes,
Steve K.

[Falcon6086]

Although, I have not read all the replies, what seems to be missing from this table saw conversation is the protective safety cover that comes with most all table saws. Many of these injuries could be avoided if people just left the covers on. I do agree that they are a complete pain in the rear, and they are remove because of this, there are there for a reason and are there to reduce the possibility of injury.

I will not lie, i have removed mine for the majority of the life of my saw, and have been very lucky to not encounter injury, but i have recently replaced my cover after taking a rather large piece of plywood to the gut at a high rate of speed from a bad kickback. One of the other major functions of the safety cover is to prevent kickback(at least on my table saw) and my injury could have been avoided had it been in place.

I have found over the years people remove the protective, safety covers/guides for easy of use, and wonder why they have lost a finger or sustained injury when something goes wrong. I once heard a story of a hack contractor who remove the safety guide from his circular saw and ended up cutting off all the the fingers of his brand new just out of trade school girl apprentice.

I have also survived a very close encounter with my chop saw, which ended up cutting one of my fingers, but i was lucky and did not have to much damage other than the cut itself (4 stitches), but the reason for the injury was due to the saw being setup on the grass and not level, and the saw did not retract as usual because it was tilted forward.

All injuries can be avoided by not cutting corners, ensuring tools are setup properly, and especially with table saws having a run out table for the wood to slide onto, instead of hanging over the back and causing binding etc. or having someone on the out feed side to help with the material.

If you remove the safety measures, be prepared to reap the rewards when said safety measures are no longer in place to do their jobs

[Steve K]

Falcon,
Good advice The blade cover usually has anti kickback teeth built into it. I'm also guilty of removing it and particularly in situations where working close to the spinning blade is required............ not good.

I would take issue with one of your suggestions.......... sort of.............
That is if I have someone helping with the out-feed side of the saw, I would only have a person who knows exactly what to do. Even then it can be iffy and I am the one on the side of the saw that will take the hit, if that person manages to bind the work piece. This is a minor point, but I would trust an out-feed table or rollers over another set of hands

Best Breezes,
Steve K.

[BOAT]

I just don't know how my dad did it. He could fill up the garage with sawdust in an hour flat running wood through the table saw. Ripping long runs of hardwood - ALL THE TIME - Running planks up in sideways positions to make paneled door stock and all kinds of strange angles on long pieces of rather thin drawer fronts (back in the 50's the big deal was that "frank Loydd Wright" look where all the drawer fronts had an angle so you grabbed them from the bottom lip instead of using a handle). He made a ton of furniture like that including the bedroom furniture i grew up with.

All on a dinky little 8 inch table saw. NO EXTENSIONS! (But the steel on that table top seemed like it was a full one inch thick and the blade has a 'ring' that I have never heard from a modern table saw).

He never threw a piece of wood, never got cut, never got a bruise - and he worked incredibly fast. In the time it takes me to crank the blade to the correct height he would have already made three cuts and a rip.

He would also run thin stock through over and over and create custom profiles buy just changing the angle of the blade and resetting the fence and running the stock right on through again.

Not me. I use a router. That's the "cheat" I use to get all the great detail edging that my dad could get in a 10th of the time by just running the stock back through the table saw in a different position.

The table saw scares the crap out of me still. I'm glad sehouse told me what part of the saw was the front - at least I know I am feeding it the wood in the right direction.

[Falcon6086]

I would agree also making sure that someone knows what they are doing on the other end. I prefer runout tables of some sort, but not always practical as you usually have to make one to fit the table saw.

I would take issue with one of your suggestions.......... sort of.............
That is if I have someone helping with the out-feed side of the saw, I would only have a person who knows exactly what to do. Even then it can be iffy and I am the one on the side of the saw that will take the hit, if that person manages to bind the work piece. This is a minor point, but I would trust an out-feed table or rollers over another set of hands

Best Breezes,
Steve K.