LED lights for cabin and navigation.

[C Buchs]

I put these in the cabin: single https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00CZ ... UTF8&psc=1 and double https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00CZ ... UTF8&psc=1 I added this: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00K2 ... UTF8&psc=1 red tail light lens repair tape to the inside of one of the double light lenses. I put this one over the table. It's been working great for two seasons now.

Jeff

[LeePierce]

I would have to go ask Dr. Google.
Just know in my days where you could build a TV from a kit using a soldering iron, diodes were a normal part of the design.
High power still used vacuum tubes, low power used diodes, transistors ,resisters, chokes, capacitors, etc....
Transistors are a fancy controllable diode, Integrated circuits are fancy transistors, etc....
I think I remember when LED's were some new gadget that we did not know what to do with till someone came up with a figure 8 pattern we could make into a number.

I guess that was wayyy to complicated an answer for "yes it is safe to reverse wire an LED".

In fact, my method for wiring a light is to, wire it, switch the switch, switch the wires, switch the switch... till something comes on.
Never worried about polarity cause the wiring does not really show polarity very well.

Lee

[Russ]

In fact, my method for wiring a light is to, wire it, switch the switch, switch the wires, switch the switch... till something comes on.
Never worried about polarity cause the wiring does not really show polarity very well.

Lee

The Mac factory didn't know/care about polarity. Incandescent bulbs don't care. So, yes, if it doesn't work, try reversing them.

[1st Sail]

I upgraded cabin, running, and mast head light with LED from here:
https://pantherrvproducts.com/
Purchased these: https://pantherrvproducts.com/eco-1156l ... nt-6-pack/

Excellent pricing. Good CRI (color rendering index). Low power consumption, brightness exceeds the OEM incandescents.

[mac n cheese]

Okay,m I tried the search, but it was coming up with too many things, my apologies in advance.

So 2 questions.

1) I had to take out the interior lights because they had all rusted and shorted out .. so suggestions on replacements?
2) has anyone replaced the red/green/white nav lights with LEDS? I seem to remember people had trouble with them because the bulbs are jsut "slightly" the wrong size for drop in replacements?

Appreciate your help.

Kevin

Hello Kevin. I love the LED options we have nowadays. I was also looking at replacing the incandescent bulbs in the Aqua Signal navigation lights. Then I looked at
the cost of whole new LED Nav Light Assy vs buying a single expensive LED and then maybe only to find out it won't fit or work. The current red/green bow light lens is also stained.

For the bow I'm going to give this a try...yeah I'm going cheap here. 1/2 the price of an Attwood. I may regret it but I'll also dismantle it and further waterproof with silicone. https://www.ebay.ca/itm/MARINE-BOAT-YAC ... 2749.l2649

Another inexpensive option would be LED light strips. Possibly mount them just under each rub strip. I would further stick some clear 3M clear tape over these light strips. They are certainly bright
if you really want to be seen.

https://www.ebay.ca/itm/2x-Boat-Navigat ... 1438.l2649

For the mast. 9 LED's

https://www.ebay.ca/itm/1x-MARINE-BOAT- ... 2749.l2649

Something different for the stern as I will remove the existing one on top and attach the following on the backside transom adjacent to the grab handle.
This LED USCG approved light also has a what seems like a flood light feature. Handy if you boarding in the dark

https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B00GP0 ... UTF8&psc=1

I'll further install some zig zag rubber cleats to the top of the transom where the stern light was. Very slick when pulling up or letting down the rudder ropes.

https://www.amazon.com/Attwood-11926-7- ... zag+cleats

For interior I installed an LED light over the galley table and wired it to the adjacent original light. Someone has already linked these lights.



I installed LED's in the 2 existing dome lights with the 1156 type. Cheap from China. As mentioned already Macgregor polarity is not consistent. One of
the two lights was not plug n play and had to be reversed.

https://www.ebay.ca/itm/2X-6000K-White- ... 1438.l2649



For the lavatory I went wireless...for what its worth. It uses 6 AA and is touch activated. 12" and 100 lumen. From Walmart.

https://www.walmart.ca/en/ip/led-utilit ... 0188553922



Also in 18" @ 150 lumen. We don't always have our 12 volt batteries in the boat and that's where wireless is handy.

https://www.amazon.com/GE-Wireless-Util ... e%2C+27510

I also stumbled upon this. Also at Walmart. Might be a nice fit over the fore and aft sleeping berths. 120 lumens and 3000K. Dimmable too. You could Velcro the remote to the wall.

https://www.walmart.ca/en/ip/globe-elec ... 0197396389

Just a few ideas.

[Tomfoolery]

Another inexpensive option would be LED light strips. Possibly mount them just under each rub strip. I would further stick some clear 3M clear tape over these light strips. They are certainly bright
if you really want to be seen.

https://www.ebay.ca/itm/2x-Boat-Navigat ... 1438.l2649

Those are not navigation lights. They don't limit the sector of visibility from dead ahead to 22.5 deg. abaft the beam, nor are they USCG approved (and couldn't possibly be). Sidelights and masthead (steaming) light dim out rather quickly with angle beyond the 22.5 deg., and at that angle the stern light takes over, so other vessels know which way you're pointed, and therefore who's the stand-on vessel and who's the give-way vessel. Showing red or green far beyond 22.5 deg, plus the white stern light, will confuse the heck out of other skippers, and will be a liability in court if someone runs into you (or you them).

I'm also leery of non-approved white nav lights, as I've seen some bluish LED masthead and stern lights, and they're confusing at first because they're not 'standard' incandescent color, and therefore not what my eyes are tuned for when on the water at night. There are LED white lights (and retrofit bulbs) that conform to the color spectrum required by the USCG and ABYC, but without actual approval, there's no way to know what they really look like without buying and trying. They look kind of blueish white, but that's a computer screen, so who knows.

Just sayin'.

[Russ]

Another inexpensive option would be LED light strips. Possibly mount them just under each rub strip. I would further stick some clear 3M clear tape over these light strips. They are certainly bright
if you really want to be seen.

https://www.ebay.ca/itm/2x-Boat-Navigat ... 1438.l2649

Those are not navigation lights. They don't limit the sector of visibility from dead ahead to 22.5 deg. abaft the beam, nor are they USCG approved (and couldn't possibly be).

Great point!!

Tom, do you know the regs for the white color specs? As you mention, the high temp white looks different. There is a uniquness to their appearance which in a way I find better as they don't look like shoreland lights. Are they legal though? I only recall a minumum viewing distance, angles and general color requirement.

Also, with the rotating mast of the M, a prudent captain would secure the mast centered for correct steaming light angle while under power.

I don't know why they are allowed to sell these strips as nav lights. Yes, they are cool, but not legal.
You may say so what? They are legal enough.
When there are injuries and lawyers, COLOREGS matter.

This famous and scary case where they charged the SAILBOAT for the accident because the drunk deputy who hit them claimed the nav lights weren't illuminated. The lawyers sent the nav bulb to a crime lab to determine if the filament was energized before the collision. THAT is how crazy and important this stuff is when criminal charges are at stake.
A smart lawyer could also say your green looked aqua and red looked pink (because high temp LED) and get you charged with an accident. Lord knows what they'd do with strip lights as navs. Yea, old Billy was right, the first thing we do.


https://www.amazon.com/Green-Blob-Outdo ... B00NHBHRV4
In the "questions" the seller clearly states they are not legal nav lights. As Tom poins out, they need to have a specific cut off angle. As cool as they are, this simply can't be legal (and shouldn't be).

[Tomfoolery]

Tom, do you know the regs for the white color specs?

I have it right here, in fact! Paragraph 7, on pdf page 3.

http://www.imcbrokers.com/frontend/file ... iii-iv.pdf

Not that it makes much sense to anyone not in the business, but the requirements are quite specific for intensity, color, and regarding the fixtures themselves, intensity within various angular sectors. Including vertical sectors, which are different for sailboats and power boats. (paragraphs 9 and 10)

Powerboats may be able to use nav lights suitable for sailboats (but don't quote me on that), but not the other way around, as when sailboats heel, the sidelights and stern lights have to maintain some minimum intensity.* And in fact, I believe the original Aqua Signal bi-color sidelight (and white stern light) unit supplied on the X is no longer legal for sailboats. But I believe the one on the bow rail of the M is.

As you mention, the high temp white looks different. There is a uniquness to their appearance which in a way I find better as they don't look like shoreland lights. Are they legal though?

I highly doubt it, as the color requirements are based on incandescent bulbs with some room around the center, but those bluish LEDs aren't even close.

When there are injuries and lawyers, COLOREGS matter.

That's my fallback reasoning when thinking about things like lighting. Only costs a few bucks more to use legal components in a one-time, durable goods purchase, and could be important down the road.

This famous and scary case where they charged the SAILBOAT for the accident because the drunk deputy who hit them claimed the nav lights weren't illuminated. The lawyers sent the nav bulb to a crime lab to determine if the filament was energized before the collision. THAT is how crazy and important this stuff is when criminal charges are at stake.
A smart lawyer could also say your green looked aqua and red looked pink (because high temp LED) and get you charged with an accident. Lord knows what they'd do with strip lights as navs. Yea, old Billy was right, the first thing we do.

The guy with his hand on the tiller with sails up but no wind (owner asked him to hold the tiller for a minute) was originally charged with manslaughter (charge was changed to felony BUI just before trial) and was eventually acquitted. The power boater that drove into them at high speed was never charged.

http://www.boatus.com/seaworthy/justice.asp

http://www.boatus.com/seaworthy/intervi ... dinius.asp

*Sailboat 'fixtures' are required to output more than 50% intensity at up to 25 deg. of heel, vs power boats needing more than 60% intensity up to 7.5 deg. of heel. Both cases require 100% intensity up to +/-5 deg of heel, with 'heel' including pitch as well.

[mac n cheese]

Interesting....good points Tom and Russ. Rule 21 International is clear as Tom has quoted which I pasted below. Funny how the following seller claims his exceed USCG regulations but then retracts
his statement in the Q & A. Well it looks like another way to 'pimp your boat'. For light intensity and colour they are probably bang on....the rest is legal stuff. You would certainly
see that jet ski coming down on you with these lights.

https://www.amazon.com/OPT7-Boat-Bow-Na ... Z8Q9EB0EGK




—INTERNATIONAL— Lights and Shapes

RULE 21 Definitions (a) “Masthead light” means a white light placed over the fore and aft centerline of the vessel showing an unbroken light over an arc of the horizon of 225 degrees and so fixed as to show the light from right ahead to 22.5 degrees abaft the beam on either side of the vessel. (b) “Sidelights” means a green light on the starboard side and a red light on the port side each showing an unbroken light over an arc of the horizon of 112.5 degrees and so fixed as to show the light from right ahead to 22.5 degrees abaft the beam on its respective side. In a vessel of less than 20 meters in length the sidelights may be combined in one lantern carried on the fore and aft centerline of the vessel. (c) “Sternlight” means a white light placed as nearly as practicable at the stern showing an unbroken light over an arc of the horizon of 135 degrees and so fixed as to show the light 67.5 degrees from right aft on each side of the vessel. (d) “Towing light” means a yellow light having the same characteristics as the “sternlight” defined in paragraph (c) of this Rule. (e) “All-round light” means a light showing an unbroken light over an arc of the horizon of 360 degrees. (f) “Flashing light” means a light flashing at regular intervals at a frequency of 120 flashes or more per minute.

[BOAT]

I really like mac and cheeze! Yum! We like it cuz it's eazy to make on the stove in 'boat' - (but don't leave it out too long after it's cooked if your close to any seaweed!) I can explain if anyone wants to know.

[Russ]

Funny how the following seller claims his exceed USCG regulations but then retracts
his statement in the Q & A. Well it looks like another way to 'pimp your boat'. For light intensity and colour they are probably bang on....the rest is legal stuff. You would certainly
see that jet ski coming down on you with these lights.

https://www.amazon.com/OPT7-Boat-Bow-Na ... Z8Q9EB0EGK

My experience with Amazon and 3rd party sellers is that Amazon tries their best to encourage accurate descriptions, but the seller is free to lie about anything. This is why the reviews are important. Also, sellers will change product and not the listing. Fortunately, Amazon has a return policy that favors the buyer.

The questions can be answered by anyone, not necessarily the seller. A quick google shows that these are not legal nav lights. Despite what the seller or buyer believes.

After reading the BoatUS article and nav lights, I tend to agree with Tom in that saving a few bucks isn't worth it if you get caught in a legal battle. The story shows the importance where manslaughter charges were at stake.

--Russ

[mac n cheese]

I really like mac and cheeze! Yum! We like it cuz it's eazy to make on the stove in 'boat' - (but don't leave it out too long after it's cooked if your close to any seaweed!) I can explain if anyone wants to know.

It's a staple dish and makes you feel young again.

Thank your Thomas Jefferson....apparently.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/how-thoma ... se-popular

[mac n cheese]

Funny how the following seller claims his exceed USCG regulations but then retracts
his statement in the Q & A. Well it looks like another way to 'pimp your boat'. For light intensity and colour they are probably bang on....the rest is legal stuff. You would certainly
see that jet ski coming down on you with these lights.

https://www.amazon.com/OPT7-Boat-Bow-Na ... Z8Q9EB0EGK

My experience with Amazon and 3rd party sellers is that Amazon tries their best to encourage accurate descriptions, but the seller is free to lie about anything. This is why the reviews are important. Also, sellers will change product and not the listing. Fortunately, Amazon has a return policy that favors the buyer.

The questions can be answered by anyone, not necessarily the seller. A quick google shows that these are not legal nav lights. Despite what the seller or buyer believes.

After reading the BoatUS article and nav lights, I tend to agree with Tom in that saving a few bucks isn't worth it if you get caught in a legal battle. The story shows the importance where manslaughter charges were at stake.

--Russ

I read that case and yes it was sad due to the women's death. I agree too....rules are rules.

[paul I]

Im re-booting this thread.

My first sail of the season extended into the evening on Memorial Day. I soon realized I had no bow navigation light. Once back in port I looked into it and found the cause to be a burned out incandescent bulb. No problem. Except for finding an off the shelf "exact" replacement.

The light is an Aqua Signal Series 20 Bi-color bow lite. Its not the original light, but it is the exact same model. The original was replaced with a new unit about 5 years ago when the anchor roller went on. The burned out bulb is marked as:

"GE 504 III 12v 5w Hungary"

But that dosent cross link to anything I could find.

West Marine sells these....
https://www.westmarine.com/buy/aqua-sig ... ecordNum=5
but they do not stock them

and Aqua Signal says the bulbs are halogen. (note the replacement above is not halogen, and neither was the bulb I removed from the fixture)
https://www.aquasignal.com.au/series-20/
They also explain how the light is certified with the bulb in it and an exact replacement is required the retain the certification.

West Marine does stock a halogen replacement, which I bought, for the time being. So I'm legal (or am I ???)
https://www.westmarine.com/buy/ancor--h ... ecordNum=8

but at $15 per bulb I figure its time to make she switch to LEDs. Not only that, when I switch on the Nav light circuit there is an additional bulb that lights a compass in the cockpit and another atop the mast to illuminate the windex (I love that light for night sails). Sometimes, I swear I hear my house battery crying.

So looking into LED's. I find BWY sells these:
http://shop.bwyachts.com/product-p/8406-1v0.htm
if I want to buy them individually

and these
http://shop.bwyachts.com/product-p/8408-1v4.htm
If I want a set. (be sure to choose yes for the deck mounted lights option)

So the bayonet style LED bulbs look a bit different if bought single vs as a set (one version clearly has more LEDs). If you read it there is conflicting info whether or not a "white" LED bulb can be used with a colored lens (not a "warm white" or "cool white".... just white). These questions are probably better off directed to BWYgirl. But if you know, please chime in.

In making a changeover to LEDs I don't want to get inundated with bugs at night because my nav lights are overly bright (especially the aft light). But I see no lumen rating listed for the BWY LED bulbs. Ditto for the official Aqua Signal replacement bulbs. The "unofficial" 12v 5w halogen replacement I bought says 5 CP, which Google says means 5 Candle Power (which seems way low). And as a measure of light intensity a CP is close to, but not exactly the same as, a lumen. And most other small LED bulbs often list 100 lumens or more.

This is frustrating.... I mean how many sailors does it take to change a light bulb????

[mac n cheese]

That is certainly a lot of $$ for individual LED bulbs from BWY vs the the cost of purchasing a whole new light assy.

https://www.amazon.com/Attwood-1-Mile-M ... lights+led