Help! Bonehead move with forestay turnbuckle-I think

[delevi]

I went to adjust my turnbuckle on the forestay the other day to reduce some more mast rake because I have noticed more weather helm. Perhaps the cable stretched a bit. I did this once before about a year ago. I'll preface this post by saying that I'm a complete zero when it comes to fixing stuff, though this boat has made me do more work with tools, etc than I ever have before in my life. So, back to the point:

I released the forestay luff and opened the turnbuckle. I cranked it but noticed that it was just turning the top bolt attached to the forestay. I then held the forestay in place with a screwdriver and used vice grips above the threading to turn the top threaded end clockwise to get it down about an inch and half or two. Nice tight rig. I then put all the furling stuff back in place and walked away. I later realized that there probably is nothing on the forestay cable to swivel it and by cranking the actual cable rather than the turnbuckle, I may have untwisted the wires of the cable. I can't imagine making 20 or so revolutions without much resistance at all... I'm hoping that nothing got screwed up. Could I have messed up the cable? Is there in fact a swivel? Please help. I'm concerned about the cable being compromised which could lead to dismasting. Thanks. Sorry again for the bonehead post.

Leon

[Dan B]

I am not exactly sure what you did, but I am hoping you didn't take Vise Grips to the cable itself.

I am not at my boat but I think what I did when tightening up my rig was
1) Unfurl the genoa
2) Remove the luff support pin
3) Raise the furler drum to expose the turnbuckle
4) Hold a pair of pliers on the top eyebolt of the turnbuckle to keep the forestay from spinning around.
5) Crank down the turnbuckle.
6) Re-assemble in reverse order.

[Catigale]

I hate that feeling when you think you have done something like this..

I really doubt you have unraveled your shroud with just a vice grip, especially if you felt little resistance.

The shroud would pivot up top at the hound and rotate there while you are rotating the turnbuckle. It is preferred to rotate the turnbuckle itself though, and pull both ends in (it will tighten twice as fast of course!!)

On edit - see below, the furler DOES NOT rotate on the hound as I thought above.

[delevi]

Dan,

I did exactly what you described with one difference. I held the turnbucle in place, rather than the forestay, above the threading of the bolt and cranked the forestay bolt with vice grips clockwise. I didn't grip the thread or cable (I gripped the solid metal part above the thread.) It would seem that there is some swivel between what I gripped and the cable but I couldn't see it, since the furler luff can only go up so high. It rotated quite easily and I gave it a good 15-20 cranks. If there is no swivel, however, I may have screwed up the forestay cable.

[Jeff S]

Just a helpful tip for when you sort out what exactly happened- I think it works better when I connect the mast raising kit, disconnect the forestay and then adjust it. If you twisted the forestay- connect the mast raiser, disconnect the forestay and it should unravel. Check the wires to ensure they aren't damaged. It might be a good time to adjust the shrouds also as they all factor in to the mast rake. Read the article on tuning in "featured articles" if you haven't already. It helped me.

[delevi]

Went back to the boat. Looks like I did untwist the wiring somewhat. I pulled up the luff as far as I could and exposed a bit of the cable. I reversed what I did to get the cable wound back up, then re-tightend the turnbuckle properly. I'll lower the mast to see the top end when I get a chance. I just hope that the integrity of the cable isn't jeopardized. It would be a pain to have to remove the furler luff to replace it.

[Dimitri-2000X-Tampa]

If you messed it up bad, you will actually see broken strands of wire in the cable. I did this once many years ago on another boat but luckily it was the second wire of a split backstay so a couple broken strands here and there was not a big deal.

Usually there is a flat part on the bolt of the forestay cable. This is for putting a wrench to it (no need for things like vice grips which could ruin your crimp) so that you can hold it stationary while you turn the turnbuckle.

Btw, my turnbuckle is cranked all the way closed, some cotter pins and tape and I don't want to see it again unless I decide to shorten it even further. Point is that as Scott mentioned, all adjustments can be made at the shrouds. Now, when I first got the boat, I wrestled with those damned slot adjusters under tension as if I had turnbuckles...what a waste of time. The proper way is to use the mast raising kit, undo your forestay, adjust the slot thingies, then tension it back up again. I finally did it this way a few weeks ago and now my rig tension is perfect.

[Dimitri-2000X-Tampa]

The shroud would pivot up top at the hound and rotate there while you are rotating the turnbuckle. It is preferred to rotate the turnbuckle itself though, and pull both ends in (it will tighten twice as fast of course!!)

Steve, you sure about that? I thought it was only the furler that rotates around the stationary forestay.

[normo]

This is what I would do. This is fresh as I am shortening the forestay now as I am convinced that on the X model the forestay is too long.

1.For peace of mind loosely tie the jib halyard or main halyard to the bow pulpit to keep the mast upright in case something goes wrong.
2. Consider following Scott's advice, as I did, and buy the Swanson Angle Finder ($10 at Lowes). Thanks Scott, what a great tool. Good for mast tuning and it allows you to document your adjustments. I don't know what the M calls for but I am looking for no more than 1-2 degrees rake on my X.
3. Leave the forestay attached to the stem. That way the stem end of the turnbuckle will not rotate when you adjust the barrel of the turnbuckle.
4. Next remove the pin from the furler drum and slide the drum up far enough so you have access to the turnbuckle.
5. Remove the cotter pins. If you don't find cotter pins then pin a Post It to your forehead so you don't forget to buy and install them when the job is complete. The turnbuckle MUST have cotter pins installed.
6. Always use wrenches and a screwdriver to adjust turnbuckles. Never use pliers or vice grips as the gripping surfaces can create indentations that could initiate cracks.
7 Just above the threads on the forestay end of the swaged fitting is a small flat for a wrench. Use this to keep the forestay from twisting. The pin at the stem will keep the other end from turning. Now just turn the barrel of the turnbuckle using a screwdriver as a lever.
8. Install the cotter pins, remove the Post It, and reset the drum.
9. Make sure that with no load, the furler rotates with minimal resistance.

[Catigale]

On my 2002 I went out and checked and Dimitri is correct, the furler just through bolts at the hound and cannot rotate.

Sorry about that chaps...

[delevi]

Yeah, it doesn't rotate on the M either. It doesn't look like any wires broke and I wound everything back up. I can only see the top and bottom ends due to the furler covering the rest, (still need to inspect the top when I lower the mast,) but I would think the ends would be the first to go. Hopefully it's back to normal. Anyone know if a cable is just as strong if the wires are unwound, then wound back up?

[normo]

For expert advice try http://www.briontoss.com/ and go to the forum. He answers many of the questions. Also call a local rigger.

For nonexpert advice here is my put:

Little doubt that your forestay is not as strong as it once was. Replace it. A 26X forestay sells for $30 plus shipping. Considering the consequences of a failure, I think this is a small price to pay for peace of mind.

For what it's worth, I just replaced an 8 year old forestay on an X that had begun to unwind and had a small kink where the furler cap rotates. I'm sure this damage was there for quite some time so some "damage" is tolerable. The question is how much is ok. Before using the boat again you should replace the forestay or have an experienced rigger inspect it.

[delevi]

OK, I took the mast down and there is dammage to the forestay cable at the top. Looks like I'll be replacing it after all. Every time I tweak something on this boat, I manage to break something

[Frank C]

Leon,
You have options. First, you an replace it with the factory-issued forestay from Bill. Alternatively, you can elect to shorten it slightly. Never priced the factory stay, but maybe $30 is about right. I took my old one into Svendsen's rigging shop, asked them to make a new one just 4 inches shorter.
Four years back, that cost was about $50 with REAL swaged terminals both ends.

[Dimitri-2000X-Tampa]

Don't most of you guys who get a new shorter forestay also upsize from 1/4 inch to 5/32 size cable like the shrouds are?

I have that on my future projects list although I still wonder if reducing the rake too much further reduces the pointing ability.

Also, as far as the rake wanting to make the boat round up, it is definitely a nuisance when you have too much weather helm and you want to go fast. However, it is also a good feature for dad's who are trying to take care of kids while sailing.

For example, I was out yesterday in ENE winds with two of the kids. In Tampa Bay, this is wind off of the mainland and tends to be pretty gusty. So, for the most part winds were 12-13 but there were occasional gusts up to about 20. With my 7 year old driving the boat and my 3 year old wanting to go potty real bad and can't get the door latch open, I had to take my body (70% of passenger weight on board) over to the low side and then of course a gust hits right about then and heels us over to 40 degrees and the boat rounds up which is good since I'm not there to release the sheets some. So, maybe I will put off shortening the forestay until my kids are a little older, don't have to go to the bathroom all the time, and weigh more.