Empty ballasted Sailing?

[tomasrey88]

Hey,

I read from past posts here and on the Macgregor factory website that the 26M is slightly faster than the 26X. However, I read on Frank Mighetto's website that the 26X is faster because it planes more easily under sail than the 26M.

Err... I'm no nautical engineer, but that sounds a bit screwy. Please correct me if I'm wrong (like I said, I'm no nautical engineer). First of all, according to the Macgregor factory website, you're not supposed to sail unballasted in either boat. You have to fill up the water ballast tank before sailing. This is because the sails will increase the center of gravity and may catch a sudden wind that could tip over the boat. The boat will be top heavy and bottom light if unballasted. Therefore you cannot sail this boat unballasted. This is dangerous. Since you cannot plane the boat when ballasted, then it will be impossible to sail the boat into a plane siince you have to plane the boat to sail faster than hull speed.

If you sail both boats with the water ballast in the boat, the faster boat would be the 26M, IMHO.

So, is Frank M wrong on this one? How many of you have sailed the 26X and 26M unballasted? Which one is faster?

Thanks,
tomasrey88.

[James V]

tomasrey88 - Hello and welcome. You can sail without the ballast and motor. However, the boat is unstable. By that I mean that it will go side to side faster. Too much, to fast and it will go over and stay that way.

With the Ballast in, the motion is not as bad and will right itself faster.

Can the Mac X or M plane under sail. Some have done it for a short time. However, I really do not need that speed with the risk. I will not sail or motor without ballest execpt in the most IDEAL conditions. I do not want to turn my 06 unside down. It would ruin my day.

I should also say that I cruise and not race and spend most of my time on the boat at anchor or dock. The longest has been 21 days.

[mtc]

Welcome aboard.

There are many boats sailing around without any type of balast. I've had my Hobbie turtle a couple of times because we didn't get her over fast enough. You just swim down to the top of the mast with a life jacket, secure it to the mast head, or swim the boat towards shore where you can simply walk the boat over.

Now, that kind of shenagins on a 26' monohul like the M or X with all kinds of floatsam, lines, rigging, radio, stereo, gps, tools, food, and all that other stuff you've got on board - would simply be dangerous. Not to mention all the stress you'd be under knowing all your gear was sinking to the bottom.

Doubtful that a turtled M would be much more difficult than the Hobbie to right, except that because it's so much more boat, more mass so you'd need all of your crew, probably six people, to hike out with their hiking straps on the trapeeze lines (which the M doesn't come with) and try to pull her over.

Once she came up, I'm farily certain that the momentum of that mass comming up and around would continue and you'd have the boat over on the other side.

Never sail without the ballast. There's no reason to do that. On a stripped boat - nothing - you'd need crew to keep her down and a lightening hand to snap that sheet out of the cam.

Throw in all the mods we've put on topsides which only increases the chances of her going over - don't do it.

Why would you do it? If you want that kind of speed gains - get an F5

Michael

[RandyMoon]

Marketing hype aside from Macgregor, I have yet to see a head to head race between a M and a X. In MANY MANY (did I mention MANY?) threads on this board discussing the same subject, I seem to remember a person or two who has owned both models and thought the M might be a little faster.

I fill the ballast when I put the boat into the slip in Spring, and drain it when I put the yard in the Winter. I would not ever try to sail without ballast. I have tried motoring without ballast and prefer to have ballast in for smoother motion and stability.

[tomasrey88]

Thanks for the answer guys. No, I will NOT be sailing with the water ballast tanks empty. I have motored with them empty, though and it's cool. I'm more of a cruiser than a speed demon. If I were a speed demon, I would've bought a Bayliner cabin cruiser. Those things haul a$$, but can't sail and cost an arm and a leg. I just want to have fun and the Mac is fast enough of a sailboat and motorboat to have fun in. I don't race either.

[Night Sailor]

I've helmed both boats. My opinion is that if you took a stock X and a stock M, bare to the bones, and put good sailor on one, an average Joe on the other, it wouldn't matter which boat the good sailor was on, he'd win. If they then swapped boats, he'd win again. The performance as far as I can tell is identical. The feel is a little different, but tracking and speed over the ground in the same conditions with the same sails is not significantly noticeable. Remember that peopoe who have new Macs to sell are not inclined to tell you how great an X is, and people who invested a lot more mony in an M than others did in an X will also tend to believe they got more for their money, whether it's proveable or not. Take either Mac and they can do a lot more than the average person will ask of them, even with out mods. I"d say choose the boat you like the looks of, or the one with a floor plan that suits you, the that makes the admiral happy, or the one that fits your budget best. You can't go wrong with either one if you are looking for a versatile coastal cruiser.

[Catigale]

Forest Gump says

will also tend to believe they got more for their money, whether it's proveable or no

...and thats all I have to say about that....

[Newell]

I have, still, will sail without ballast, all sails, including spinaker, in light to moderate winds, usually with wife or both of us. Learn how to control the boat and have some fun. I never motor with ballast in, are you crazy?

Don't worry, be happy

Newell
Fast Sunday 96X

[Tom Root]

I have, still, will sail without ballast, all sails, including spinaker, in light to moderate winds, usually with wife or both of us. Learn how to control the boat and have some fun. I never motor with ballast in, are you crazy?

Don't worry, be happy

Newell
Fast Sunday 96X

Gotta agree, it is safe with diligence manning the helm. I never feared any capsize up to about 11 knots, then I feel a bit more caution is neccasary, and time to wet the ballast tanks!

Once you feel you have mastered with ballast, try it, as even Roger has made a comment in both the manual and sales video, that it is doable. No one up on deck, foreward of the cockpit while underway is something else I recommend, along with PFD's on at all times, and all loose gear stowed.

No real numbers, but I feel she is faster in light winds anyway!

[mighetto]

If your going to race you do need to learn how to sail unballasted. The first line of the owners manual states "If you have to sail unballasted.... and that if refers to racing. The X is a heavy boat, in comparison to the Mac classics, when fully ballasted.

We just finished the San Juan Classic, a race out of Friday Harbor and owing to light winds never even thought about ballast. Many summer races are this way. We finished half the course and called it a day but it was enjoyable to be passing others. A lot of work, but enjoyable.

If you are concerned about unballasted sailing add 300 lbs of weight low in the boat. This is what we rated Murrelet for and it seamed prudent given the M which has that weight factory installed. Think of dropping ballast when you might use a spinnaker and instead of a spinnaker.

The X will plane in normal wind.

Coming back from the Lattitudes and Attitudes event, and loaded as a Dwan Dunn cruiser, I single handed my 1999 X at 8 MPH steady for over 20 minutes accross Cattle Pass (fishermans bay to friday harbor) . That has to be planing speed but I suppose one could argue. The point to make is that speed = stability. I was unballasted on a reach and white caps were subsiding, probably wind above 11 to 12 MPH. Single head sail 150 Genoa fully extended, on the mid ship rail seat initially, and transfering to the lee side as the wind dropped. I was giving a fully clothed Cal 35 plus the fits, trying to catch me.

The Tasar one design boats train novices of this most often forgotten fact. Speed = Stability. Of course we in the X "cult" know this from experience under motor power. Why is it so suprising that it might be true when under sail?

So if you are heeling to much, ballasted or unballasted, try falling off to go faster. See if your x doesnt heal less. Its the exact opposit of what a US keel boat instructor will tell you to do and it is why I generally try to keep X novices away from US instruction.

Once you have hit 9 or above on an X under sail, which really isn't tough to do, even ballasted, you are going to be happy with the model even though it isn't MacGregor's latest and you can not get those very kewl gull seats the Ms have.

Frank L. Mighetto

[delevi]

The boat will plane ballasted when sailing downwind. I have only achieved this once, doing 10+ mph, surfing the waves. Really cool. The keys is going downwind and enough speed. I don't think this can be done on any point of sail higher than a broad reach, ballast or not; though I personally think that it is dangerous to sail w/o ballast. If you capsize a dinghy, that's one thing. I can't imagine trying to right a 26M or X from capsize. Don't want that experience or risk to those on board.

Leon

[Duane Dunn, Allegro]

I think a good example of how close the performance of the X and M are under sail was the recent BlueWater Yachts rendezvous. There were 45 boats present, almost evenly split between X's and M's. Every type of sailor from experienced to newbie. The fleet left Friday Harbor as a ragged group to sail around Shaw Island. As the sailing progressed the order of the fleet did not change. The M's did not all zoom to the front leaving us poor X's behind.

Our heavy cruising X held it's own against both M and X. In particular I enjoyed the part where I finally went on deck and set the whisker pole to run wing on wing. The boat surged ahead leaving Frank M, who had been closing, in my wake. That is until we hit that rough dead spot and compressed together with all the other boats ahead. Then it was time for the iron genoa.



I have know doubt that in the hands of the same experienced sailor, in the same conditions the M would prove seconds faster than the X. But back in the real world you'll be hard pressed to find a difference.

Also, as a side note. BWY has done quite a bit of testing with different motors and one place where the M has proven slower than an X is with a big motor. They found that the M had a top end speed limit no matter how big of a motor they put on. The 90 performed no better than the 70. The rounder hull shape cannot be driven as fast. The flatter hull of the X responds much more to the extra power of the bigger the motor.

[baldbaby2000]

I've sailed my M many times with no ballast. The M has 300 lbs of fixed ballast so it's probably more stable than the X with no ballast. I've also added 55 lbs of lead to the dagger board.

I've only been in a formal race once where there was an X and we won by a fair margin. It's too bad more people aren't racing these boats.

The problem with no ballast is that you have to plan on the worst case. Once a race is started without ballast you're pretty much stuck the whole race that way. If you get a few gusts that make you go out of control, you can loose everything you've gained by not having the ballast in. I can sail on all points of sail with no ballast in winds up to about 10 knots with a jib and full main.

[Terry]

The boat will plane ballasted when sailing downwind. I have only achieved this once, doing 10+ mph, surfing the waves. Really cool. The keys is going downwind and enough speed.

Yes, it is really cool, my wife and I recently had a similar experience coming back to home port in the PNW. We had just passed through Presidents Channel and came up to the north end of Patos Island into Boundary Pass just at the south end of Saturna Island. The usual NW winds that bring good weather had turned to the SE that bring inclement weather so we were making a run for it just ahead of the storm. We had that SE wind at our backs chasing us all the way home, add to that a strong flood tide travelling with us and we were really moving. This area is just north of Sucia and it is usually a two hour run back to Point Roberts Marina, but this time we did it in 1-1/2 hours. The rollers were big and we surfed down every one, never thought the Mac could sail that fast. I left the engine running at 2500 rpm to help keep the boat straight with the autohelm steering but the boat was moving three to four times faster than the engine could move it at that RPM. Yes, she planes under those conditions but those were likely the epitomy of favourable conditions, we made it back to our slip just barely ahead of the storm with winds so high we had to shout for help to get docked into our slip (I sounded the air horn to get folks attention). It was lots of fun but scary at times too, that storm front lashed at our backs alll the way and those rollers were the biggest I have been out on but they were rolling with us so it did not seem so dangerous, had I beed going the opposite direction I am sure I would have buried more than just the bow into them. The only thing I regretted was not having a whisker pole as the headsail was not very cooperative, (I have one now) with a whisker pole I may have gone even faster, still the experience was exhillarating and gives me a better perspective of the macs' capabilities, she is a fine boat.

Edit- yes, I had ballast, I don't have the nerve to sail without it, but I think nothing of motoring without it.

[Chinook]

Terry's account of planing under sail with full ballast brings to mind our experience returning from the Bahamas. We had waited a full week at West End on Grand Bahama, waiting for a persistent northerly wind to clock into the eastern quadrant and allow the Gulf Stream to calm down, before making our run back to West Palm Beach. We finally got an encouraging forecast and prepared to depart in the company of our buddy boat, a 44 foot ketch. We departed together before dawn, with a 10 knot breeze out of the east. 6 foot residual swells, well spaced apart, rolled in from the northeast. We were under power, full ballast, and cruising at around 6 knots. I found that as each swell swept by, our speed would increase to around 11 knots. Outboard steering and power gave me excellent control, and maximized the free ride. It was quite exhilerating. We looked over our shoulders from time to time, and watched our big buddy boat getting knocked all over the place by the passing swells. We had a much more comfortable ride. Another unforgettable memory of that crossing: directly astern we watched the sun rise into a clear sky, while directly ahead, the full moon was settling into the sea. Great experience.