Electronics/ battery use and charging.

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capt. black
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Electronics/ battery use and charging.

Post by capt. black »

Greetings ladies and gentlemen...

Its winter break modification time for our boat Gwensong. I got engaged, her name is Gwen, and I had not named the boat. My wife to be loves this
boat so I thought I would name it with my wife in mind!
Now for the mods...
The 1st thing that comes to mind is a stable electircal system
I dont plan on putting an air conditioner on Gwensong too many amp per hour, so I will create a compaionway fan (Loews dual window fan with remote control). For my entertainment system the Creative Black Zen Nano 3GB mp3 player with FM tuner, the loudspeaker system is a JBL multimedia speaker system using a total of 76 watts. For our viewing pleasures I will use my IBM T42 laptop. The power source is where I am not feelling warm and fuzzie. I am looking at isolating the house battery from the starting battery. I will go with the Gel cell 27ah or 31 ah.
for the charging the West Marine BatteryLink ACR. The house battery will be hard wired to a Westmarine Pro 1000 fixed mount inverter. Do I have to have a battery switch? These are dedicated batteries, if my starting battery fails I can start my outboard by hand. My fellow sailors please tell me if there are errors in this and give me a resolution. thanks in advance. :macm:
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Post by James V »

Sounds interesting for the dock. When you stay on the water you will have some problems.

You should put in a switch for the batteries, Off - A - B - A + B.

You battery AH seams a little low. For starting it should be OK. Your motor does charge well and more Amp Hours would be wise.

Of course, please install to marine standards.

Yes, you can start most motors by hand but you still need 12v's.
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DLT
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Re: Electronics/ battery use and charging.

Post by DLT »

capt. black wrote:I will go with the Gel cell 27ah or 31 ah.
Are you sure you're not talking about a Group 27 or Group 31 battery here? This is related to size - not amp hour capacity. Of course, a bigger battery often has a higher ah rating...

You need some way to turn that inverter off, or disconnect it from the batteries. Inverters draw some current, all the time, even with nothing plugged into them. This will drain your batteries...

Rather than using an inverter, have you thought about keeping it all DC? I'd bet everything you have actually runs off DC, some probably even 12v DC, which is exactly what you have sitting in those batteries. The inverter (that converts DC into AC) and those power supplies (that convert AC back into DC) are typically significantly less than 90% efficient. Which means that more than 20% of your battery capacity is simply wasted in the up/down conversions...

There is no way you would ever see an AC powered fan on my boat. The only way you might, would be if I was hooked up to shore power. But, I have an air conditioner, so... Go get a bunch of $10 auto fans from your local wal-mart. These will run right off the house battery - no conversion necessary...

Last, but certainly not least, YES - ISOLATE YOUR STARTING AND HOUSE BATTERIES. You said that you can hand start your motor. This may be easier said than done. (Think, what if we've anchored out somewhere and I get injured - can Gwen hand start it?) But, even if you truely can when you need to, You don't want that to be the normal mode of operation, do you? If nothing else, isolate them so you know when you've drained the house. You can at that point, if you so choose, switch to the starter motor... At least you know where you stand... Kinda like a reserve on a dirt bike gas tank...

With that said, of course, you should plan to only drain your batteries about 50% of thier capacity. Draining them all the way down will significantly shorten their life...

A final thought: How are you gonna charge your batteries? If you can hand start your motor, I doubt it produces more than ~10 amps to charge batteries. How long would it take, running that motor, to replace the current you plan on using overnight?
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Night Sailor
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Post by Night Sailor »

I could be more specific if I knew whcih model of Mac you have, and what kind of gel cell batteries. Most deep cycle batteries are in the 55a/h to 70 a/h range for those group sizes. Their output declines with age and cyclilng. In addition to making sure that only 1/2 of your batteries' rated amp hours are adequate to meet your energy budget, I recommend using a battery switch or switches to be sure no power goes to circuits after you leave the boat. The only exception being if you keep your boat in the water, a constant feed to the automatic bilge pump switch. Radios, changers, etc. with memory all draw current constantly if not cut off entirely from the power source. It is so easy to turn down the volume on the radio and forget it is on.

Even if you plan mostly day sailing, figure night lighting for anchor and navigation lights into your energy budget for emergency use. It's best to figure the maximum drain when doing your budget. For example don't use the standby wattage of your VHF, but the transmit watts. Use the inverter as little as possible because energy is wasted as heat in the inversion. Straight 12v DC is the most efficient if you can use it for your computer and other appliances.

Isolating the start and house battery is a good idea, but I recommend a battery combiner to charge the house battery automatically after the start battery is recharged. This is an advantage while cruising and when at the dock.

Gel cells are more finicky than most about charging volts, amps, and temps. Be sure the charger will be the optimum for the gel cell. Or consider getting an Optima battery instead. Not finicky, smaller, lighter, and many more cycles available. The additional cost is well worth it in my expeirence.

Mount your batteries close together so cables can be switched if necessary to start the engine.
Do not rely on engine power to fully charge your batteries, only to replace some of what you use. Start out with batteries fully charged via 110v automatic 3 stage charger, then the engine will do a good job of keeping up with demand while it is running. During heavy usage like all cabin lights, nav lights, fans, inverter running laptop, etc. all going at the same time, consider also running engine at fast idle to help keep up with the demand.

Hope this helps.
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Duane Dunn, Allegro
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Post by Duane Dunn, Allegro »

I'll give you the other view.

Do not isloate your batteries. With the simple electrical system on a mac and the low starting requirments of our motors there is no need.
  • Keeping them separate means you will get a reduced life out of your house battery.
    Keeping them separate really wastes the capacity of the starting battery.
    Keeping them separate also means you need a set of switches and a battery combiner to keep things charged.
In any case you DO NOT want a Off-A-Both-B switch. These are outdated and can leave the opportunity for user errors. If you do separate the batteries you want 3 simple on-off switches. Refer to this article.

If you get two batteries (I assume you are refering to group 27 typically 85-105ah or group 31 95-125ah batteries which have far mor amp hours than their group number suggests) I would make sure they are matched in size and wire them together in parallel. This will result in making the sum of their amp hours available to you.

The general guidline is to never use more than 50% of a batteries ah capacity. For a given days load, say 30ah used, you would use 33 % of a single house g27 rated at 90ah. If your 2 g27's were wired in parallel you would have used only 16.6% of your capacity. This shallower dip into your batteries capacity will result in longer battery life. Battery life is direct result of how deeply and often you dip into it's reserves. While a battery may be able to withstand 200 discharges to 50%, it will be able to many times more discharges to 25% of capacity.

Other reasons to go the single bank route,
  • Simpler charging. You only need a single bank shore charger. Your connection to the motor does not need a combiner.
    Simpler wiring. You only need a single master on off switch.
    Simpler use. You will not by accident leave your switches in the wrong position.
    More power is available yet you are being gentler to your batteries.
I feel that this is a very appropriate system for the simple mac electrical system. Some claim my electrical system is anything but simple with all the stuff I have. Still, there is no need for a system designed to cross oceans in our boats.

I suggest to this simple system you add a high quality amp hour meter (volt meters are useless when the batteries are in active use). Save all your extra switch and combiner money and spend it on a meter that will give you an accurate picture of your electrical use in real time. This will allow you to make the proper consumption decisions and never get into a dead battery situation. Having a single bank also lets you buy a cheaper meter.

I have used and advocated this system for the Mac for many years. Many others here have adopted it as well an are pleased with it's simplicity and functionality.

I do carry a small jump start battery just in case but the only time I have used it was for the truck.

I have no concerns about the redundancy I have available. I've never even come close to a dead battery bank even on multi-day overnights anchored out at parks with no additional power and 5 people on board including 3 kids who swear they never knew a switch had an off position. And this is with the two small group 24 batteries I had which were mis-matched of different ages and dual purpose instead of deep cycle. But say I did kill the single bank. I have the jump start battery tucked away and charged before each trip. Call it dead too. I can hand start my Tohatsu 50 (I've seen it done, it's not theory). I have my 6hp dinghy motor on a transom bracket that is only hand start and it will move the boat at 6 knots (tested and proven). Plus horror of horrors, this is a sail boat. Somehow people got where they needed to go without motors for centuries. I have no worries about being stranded at all.

I just changed my battery system last summer. I went with two GC2-6v golf cart batteries wired in series. This provides me 215ah at 12 volts. As you can imagine golf cart batteries are designed for a high number of very deep cycles and a high vibration environment. The make a perfect high capacity, long life bank and at $90 each they are quite a bargin. Note that their footprint in comperable to a G27 but they are taller.

These are wired to a single positive stud for connection to the motor and shore charger and then on to master on/off switch for the loads. the negative goes to the link 10 meter shunt.
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DLT
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Post by DLT »

Duane Dunn, Allegro wrote:Do not isloate your batteries. With the simple electrical system on a mac and the low starting requirments of our motors there is no need.
Duane makes many good points here. While this is not what I've chosen for myself, many times the simpler approach is better...

One issue with a single bank not already addressed is that the batteries must be identical. You almost certainly want them to be even the same age... If there is any differences in the batteries, you will lose energy as they equalize.

An extension of this idea is when one of your batteries goes bad. This will drag down the whole system. Unfortunately, this is a matter of when, not if...

With that said, I isolate my starting battery from my house bank. My starting battery is just that, one starter battery. My house bank is three (3) big AGM dual purpose batteries. So, I have the potential problem described above with my house bank anyway... But, my starting battery is isolated and is never used for anything except starting the motor. Oh, it also supplies one of two automatic bilge pumps and can be quickly configured to power the VHF... But, hopefully, it will never be needed for either of them...

I'm an electrical guy. So, I can reconfigure just about anything in a matter of minutes. But, I like knowing that my starter battery is always there fully charged and ready to go for anyone to use in an emergency (whether I'm conscious or not)...

I'm also kind of a freak on the charging side, as well... I have a 20amp dual circuit charger that charges both banks when I'm on shore power. I have 120w of flexible solar panels that get tossed atop the bimini to easily replace what the DC refridgerator uses. I also have a wind generator, when more serious off-grid charging is needed...
eric3a

Post by eric3a »

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Last edited by eric3a on Mon Mar 10, 2008 10:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Frank C

Post by Frank C »

Capt Black, Welcome aboard, great summary of your plans & pointed questions.

You're one lucky sailor ... new sailing partner on the boat & you've already rec'd comprehensive answers from some of the most qualified members of your new community. James & NightSailor are both long-term guys, oriented as liveaboards. DLT is our resident electrician. Eric's our new marine & sail expert, and Duane is the resident cruising expert.

I'm no expert at all, but know how to take advantage of these resources. This past year I subscribed to Duane's logic ... using 12 volts parallel instead of 6. I have a Suzuki DF-60 (see left) with 21 amps of charging capacity ... has been ample to serve my 12v demands. Duane's right ... it is simply a waste to dedicate 60 lbs & 75ah solely to starting our little motors. I always carry a jump-start battery for emergencies. Mainly used to pump up the trailer tires ... never needed for the outboard. But the greatest truism above - sails ARE our backup!

I have two Deep-cycle group 31s in a single bank - total of 230 ah - for all those good reasons argued by DD. I also have a redundant battery combiner, and a Link monitor. Starting this motor causes barely a blip in that house bank ... the sound system is the biggest energy hog.

Always remember that 75 watts is negligible at home but it's a bunch of power on the boat. I took DLT's advice and ripped open my multimedia speaker system. Sure enough there was a 14v transformer on the end of that 110v power cord. Now wired direct, it draws much less total energy when the inverter is bypassed, but it's still the energy hog.
As NS mentioned, since you don't need air conditioning, best plan is to simplify everything to 12 volts. 8)



Mod's Note: this thread is particularly valid for long term archives - moved to Modifications forum - fc
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DLT
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Post by DLT »

Frank C wrote:DLT is our resident electrician
Wow, thanks, I think... I don't know that I fully deserve that title...

Just to be clear, I am most certainly not a licensed electrician, much less a marine electrician... Furthermore, people often disagree with my suggestions and opinions.

By the way, one should always take information from this site with a grain of salt, so to speak... None of us have seen your boat. None of us know anything about you and your situation, other than what you've posted here.

But, the beauty of this site is that you get lots of information/opinions. Some you agree with, some you don't, and some that raise issues that you didn't think of... So, you get to make better decisions based on what you think fits you better...
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Post by Duane Dunn, Allegro »

One other note since you mention using your computer. I too use one of my laptops for entertainment purposes on board. Until recently I used it plugged in to my small inverter (125w) and while this worked fine it would often suck a lot of amps as it charged the laptop battery.

It's an HP laptop and I just recently bought a HP dual voltage power supply 65w for it. This power supply can use 12v or 120v. It comes with a lighter adapter.

It also has a dual output voltage function. The power supply that came with the laptop puts out 18.5 volts. This one can be switched between 15v output and 18.5v output. The laptop tracks the input voltage and only charges the battery if it is receiving 18.5 volts. This lets you plug in the laptop to the 12v system and with the power supply set in 15v mode only provide the power needed to run the laptop which is a lot less than required for charging. Press the 'charge' button on the power supply and it kicks up to 18.5v and will charge the laptop battery at the expense of more amps from your boat battery. Windows even recognizes these changes and changes the system tray icon to represent if the system is just running on the power adapter or charging from the power adapter.

Here is my entertainment setup.

Image

The audio is a set of powered PC stereo speakers with a sub-woofer. I specifically picked a set that used an external 12v wall wart for the power supply. I just cut off the wire and connected it directly to the boat system.

The desk is a plywood 'T' shaped structure that is attached to the table using a bolt in place of one of the screws that hold the clear plexi in place. This keeps it firmly attached yet allows it to swivel to face any direction. The speakers are bolted under the desk surface and the laptop is held in place with two velcro strips. The sub-woofer is mounted inside the compartment under the forward dinette seat in a empty corner. Even with the compartment closed and the cushion in place it provides plenty of bass.

The raised design and small footprint of the 'T' base still leaves the table fully usable. We can easily seat 4 at the table with full size plates and have plenty of room for food.

We feed the audio from the laptop, our MP3 players, and our XM satellite radio through this system. It works great.

With the system on the table there is plenty of room for the 5 of us to gather around and watch a movie while we snack on jiffy pop. The kids think jiffy pop is much cooler than microwave popcorn.

Image
Frank C

Post by Frank C »

Capt Black, not sure what outboard you have but while browsing Nissan's website today I found this following quote in their FAQ:
Do I need a special battery to start a TLDI®?

NISSAN answers:
Because of the additional power requirements needed for a direct injection, TLDI® motors require you to use a marine battery with the following rating:
  • 100AH battery = 600 Cold Cranking Amps (CCA),
    750 Marine Cranking Amps (MCA)
For users in colder climates, you should use a battery with a rating of:
  • 120AH battery = 700 Cold Cranking Amps (CCA),
    850 Marine Cranking Amps (MCA)
Never knew this regarding the TLDI. Though it partly contradicts the logic Duane & I have been spouting, I still believe a full-sized battery is overkill for most 4-strokes & older 2-strokes. Suzuki, for example, adds over-sized alternators (vs. industry norms) to support their electronics. But each owner must choose his own path ... YMMV.


Consider adding your boat/motor info to the Location field in your Profile.
It really helps others to understand the context of your comments & questions
.

:)
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DLT
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Post by DLT »

Yeah, my ETEC requires a real "starter" battery...

Most batteries designed for "starter" service - high current draw over short time - are not designed for "house" usage - less current draw over a long time.

So, given that and the idea of all batteries in a bank need to be identical, if you have a motor that does require a kick in the pants, you may be better served with an isolated system...

Again, YMMV (your mileage may vary), so you need to decide which is right for you. Duane has had his setup for some time and apparently loves it, so.
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Duane Dunn, Allegro
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Post by Duane Dunn, Allegro »

There are always additional things to consider. My motor is a Tohatsu 50 2 stroke, no EFI, no computer, nothing. It can be started without a battery even attached. It's loud and a gas hog but it is darn near bulletproof. As was pointed out to me, with it's three carbs, three magnetos, three everything, combined with no electronics it's about a redundant as you can build a motor. You can damage quite a few parts before it will stop running at all.

Obviously for those with 4 strokes out there you will have to have some juice to run the computer even if you provide the spin power by hand. It makes sense that the newer electronic two strokes would need even more power given their electronics and having to deal with the higher compression loads of the two strokes design.

I think you will find that a decent deep cycle battery will be capable of providing the cranking power needed for any type of outboard in the size range used on a Mac. Even cranking a TLDI 90 is within the capabilities of a G27 deep cycle.

Here's more info on battey types, measurements, etc.

http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/st ... attery.htm
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Post by baldbaby2000 »

You battery AH seams a little low. For starting it should be OK. Your motor does charge well and more Amp Hours would be wise.
Remember that more AH only helps for so long. If you can't replenish the batteries--i.e. your motor or whatever charging system you have doesn't put in what you take out--it won't help much. I carry a Honda generator and a battery charger to keep mine charged. My motor only puts out 150 Watts or so. I also have solar chargers but as I get more gadgets I find the need to use the generator more and more.

I use the 1-2-both type switch. I think it's fine because I know how it works but it can be confusing to other people. I have a dual cycle and a deep cycle.

BB
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Post by Catigale »

Wonder what the diff is between Cold Crank Amps and Marine Cranking Amps :?:
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