constantly rounding up in fresh winds

[DaveC426913]

Well today was a whole different can of wax!

Maybe 10-12 knots steady. But, the Admiral dislikes any heel greater than 10 degrees. We were on a beam reach and I let the sail out a little more than I might have if I were alone. I had it set more for a broad reach - main was against the spreaders.

Strangely, we kept up a good 5.5 - 6.5 knot sail the whole morning! Actually hit 7.0 for a minute!


You know, I keep getting conflicting advice about where to set the main. A lot of people seem to feel that the main should almost always be sheeted in almost to the centreline, even on a beam reach. But I'd first learned to have the main sheet out at a good 30 degrees - enough so that the mainsail luff is 90 degrees to centreline. Maybe other boats are just different.

[bscott]

New sails will add more drive and less heeling--easier to tack--the Doyles Roger sold us were Doyle's bottom of the line
economy priced suitable for S. Cals moderate conditions-the birth place of the Mac with a 3-5 yr. useful sail life before bagging out..

Bob

[bscott]

Well today was a whole different can of wax!


You know, I keep getting conflicting advice about where to set the main. A lot of people seem to feel that the main should almost always be sheeted in almost to the centreline, even on a beam reach. But I'd first learned to have the main sheet out at a good 30 degrees - enough so that the mainsail luff is 90 degrees to centreline. Maybe other boats are just different.

The leech tell tails well always tell you where to set your main and jib--lots of good sailing vids on the web to watch.

Bob

[Catigale]

Dave,.a lot of macs have blown out mains...me included...which will overpower much quicker than a good main. My guess is keeping a baggy sail on the centerline is a compromise solution.

Telltales are the best way to Optimise sail shape if you don't have an Olympian sail partner to teach you,

[DaveC426913]

Dave,.a lot of macs have blown out mains...me included...which will overpower much quicker than a good main. My guess is keeping a baggy sail on the centerline is a compromise solution.

Telltales are the best way to Optimise sail shape if you don't have an Olympian sail partner to teach you,

I'm not sure if my main is blown out. On my previous baot, the blown out sails were pretty obvious. On my Mac, I seem to be able to get the sail flatter. But I have an inexperienced eye.

[bartmac]

Often discussed....weather helm......new sails are good but the single biggest improvement was to check and adjust the mast rake....we had to shorten our front stay beyond its normal adjustment by fitting another mast hound?? up about 65mm to allow for some adjustment at the other end...All good now and our 26X behaves a lot better

[tlgibson97]

Adjusting the mast rake corrected most of my weather helm issues. Before adjustment you had to always turn the wheel into the wind every time it heeled. Anyone steering that didn't know the boat always rounded up with every puff. I raked the mast as far forward as I can get it and now it just slightly pulls when heeling. The boat sits stern low in the water when empty so it sits even lower with people in the cockpit sailing. Instead of shortening my forestay I am going to try some things to level the boat in the water. It also leans to port because everything is stored on the port side but that's not as noticable when sailing and any other time it more depends on where people are sitting.

[DaveC426913]

Adjusting the mast rake corrected most of my weather helm issues. Before adjustment you had to always turn the wheel into the wind every time it heeled. Anyone steering that didn't know the boat always rounded up with every puff.

I'm confused.

I have to turn away from the wind - otherwise it will round up.

I raked the mast as far forward as I can get it and now it just slightly pulls when heeling.

I doubt I can get more than an inch or so of shortening from the turnbuckle. I guess I'll have to actually shorten the forestay (RF).

But here's my problem: it is already almost impossible to get enough pull to attach my RF when raising the mast. Any shroter and I'll never get the pin in.

The boat sits stern low in the water when empty so it sits even lower with people in the cockpit sailing. Instead of shortening my forestay I am going to try some things to level the boat in the water. It also leans to port because everything is stored on the port side but that's not as noticable when sailing and any other time it more depends on where people are sitting.

You know, this just made me think about something that I had trouble with last year. On a starboard tack, my boat was making several knots better speed than on a port tack. It never occurred to me, but my boat when in the slip has a 2 degree list to port. I wonder if that's related.

(Then again, it could be that my hull is more algae-fouled on one flank than the other.)

[beene]

Wind was about 15 knots, gusting to 22.

I reefed my main, and tweaked my genny between 40% and 70%.

This put me on a heel of maybe 15 degrees if I was lucky. But I found the same problem as always when in these conditions. The moment the boat gets up some speed (about 5 knots), it blows over to 25 degrees, then rounds up, and I lose it all, even with the wheel all the way to lee. No matter how much I try to stay on a straight course I find myself following a "scalloped" path.

The gusts are one thing, I understand they throw a wrench into the works, but even in a steady wind this still happens. What can I do to keep a straight course in 15 knot winds?

To be clear though, the issue here is not about the puffs, this happens in a steady wind.

Sorry
I thought you said winds were 15k gusting to 22k.
Which for a Mac, is a challenge.

Thing is, it could be 15k steady. But as soon as you get some speed up, the apparent wind picks up as well.
So you are not sailing in just 15k anymore

What would be happening in a steady 15k with no gusts, unlike gusts to 22 like stated above, would be your sail area is fine for 15, but then boat speed picks up, apparent wind speed increases, and now you are over canvased.

G

[Tomfoolery]

But here's my problem: it is already almost impossible to get enough pull to attach my RF when raising the mast. Any shroter and I'll never get the pin in.

Use a mast raising system (MRS), so you can put some real pull on that mast, and lengthen the shrouds as needed when you adjust the rake - don't try to brute force the rake out of it. Adjust the shrouds per the manual, but with less rake, if that's what you want.

You have a backstay, so it should be slackened when pinning the forestay, then tensioned per the manual. Many folks use a Johnson lever for the backstay, so once adjusted, the Johnson lever can be opened to instantly slacken it, and closed and it's retensioned. Many folks also use a Johnson lever for the forestay, but I have no trouble pinning mine when I put some Wellie on the MRS, and the shrouds are correctly tensioned once I back off the MRS. I have a turnbuckle for my backstay, which is rather crude and clunky, but it was there when I got the boat, and I just haven't felt like spending the cash on a Johnson lever for it, as the TB works just fine, if a little slower to adjust.

[Steve K]

I don't even connect my backstay until the mast is up and tensioned properly.
I have an adjustable purchase on my backstay, btw.
The backstay on the X and the classics has little effect on the rig (but some). This is why it was done away with on the M and some other similar sailboats (a lot of Hunters come to mind).

To change the rake, you must first let out the adjusters on the side stays and shrouds. I have found, on both my X boat and my D boat that the adjusters for the uppers end up pinned out to near their maximum length, to get the rake where I want it. In my favorite picture of my boat, the mast looks as though it is actually standing forward of straight up...........
https://app.box.com/s/590ea272a72b1f34bc93

I have since raked it back, just slightly, but it still stands up there. My boat will sail itself in steady breezes of 9 to about 12 mph, by just proping the tiller extension on the seat cushions........
https://app.box.com/shared/t749sfc1t4
(notice, no one in the cockpit. Sat on the bow taking pictures for about 20 or 30 minutes that day....... breezes were perfect that day and this is rather rare....... a little higher, but notice the main is reefed).
When the boat is well balanced, The rudder should be on the centerline and the boat should run a pretty straight course on it's own. It will run up a little in a small puff, but should recover when the puff passes (small is the key word here). If she is steadily trying to head up, try using the sheets, rather than the rudder to bring her back on course.

If there is a lot of mast rake, and the boat sits low in the rear, this increases said rake. Rake measured is in relation to the water surface, not the deck of the boat. The X manual does give a way to set a starting point, in relation to the deck and I've seen plenty of Xboats that have 10 or more inches of rake, instead of 2 or 3, using this method. And yes, the X is going to round up easily with that much rake......... particularly when combined with older sails and a lot of weight in the rear. Move those batteries and water tanks forward, if they are in the rear.

Again, read this article...... it's a good primer.

http://www.macgregorsailors.com/article ... racrig.php

Hopefully Helpful,
SK

[Tomfoolery]

I've often wondered why MacGregor designed the with so much mast rake, at least according to the manual.

[Steve K]

I've often wondered why MacGregor designed the with so much mast rake, at least according to the manual.

From talking to Bill and others @ the factory, some years ago, they said it was designed in as a safety feature. The idea was it was better, particularly for new sailors, for the boat to round up into the wind, than to broach.
This is as I understood it anyway, but not sure I understand the dynamic here though.

I do know that an X sails better and holds course better with minimum mast rake.......... if I remember correctly, she even pointed better. When I had my X, I tweaked the rig a lot until I got it about as good as it could be. I had the boat so I could usually out sail and point higher than the other X boats I sailed with (except one crazy fellow).

The things I found that help the boat most was little mast rake and moving as much weight forward as possible.
My X boat was a 1997 year model. The ballast tank went all the way to the stern. At some point (I forget what year) MacGregor re-designed the tank so it stopped short of the stern by about a foot. There was just a small channel, or tunnel that went to the stern valve. You see, the early boats sailed great with no outboard, or a small 2 stroke. However, the 389 pound 50hp four stroke Merc and other four stroke outboards were enough to really effect stern weight a lot.
I knew a guy who had a 10 hp outboard on his X boat and it was one of the best performing (under sail) X boats I ever saw.
He also had built improved rudders, which I always wanted to try. The Popsicle sticks aren't enough, imho. Having the old flimsy rudder brackets prevented this though. I sold the boat before doing this improvement however.

Anyway, guess I've sort of gotten off subject here, but thought this might also be good info.

Best Breezes,
Steve K.

[tlgibson97]

Adjusting the mast rake corrected most of my weather helm issues. Before adjustment you had to always turn the wheel into the wind every time it heeled. Anyone steering that didn't know the boat always rounded up with every puff.

I'm confused.

I have to turn away from the wind - otherwise it will round up.

That's right. As if it heels to starbord it would rotate hard to port. I take for granted now how much I had to fight the boat in the best winds.

I raked the mast as far forward as I can get it and now it just slightly pulls when heeling.

I doubt I can get more than an inch or so of shortening from the turnbuckle. I guess I'll have to actually shorten the forestay (RF).

But here's my problem: it is already almost impossible to get enough pull to attach my RF when raising the mast. Any shroter and I'll never get the pin in.

If you do need to shorten the forestay, this would be a good time to install a johnson lever to help get the pin in without having to move your hound up.

The boat sits stern low in the water when empty so it sits even lower with people in the cockpit sailing. Instead of shortening my forestay I am going to try some things to level the boat in the water. It also leans to port because everything is stored on the port side but that's not as noticable when sailing and any other time it more depends on where people are sitting.

You know, this just made me think about something that I had trouble with last year. On a starboard tack, my boat was making several knots better speed than on a port tack. It never occurred to me, but my boat when in the slip has a 2 degree list to port. I wonder if that's related.

(Then again, it could be that my hull is more algae-fouled on one flank than the other.)

For some reason mine seems to like it better on starbord tack also. I don't really know why. I wouldn't think it would have anything to do with the lateral imbalance because I move people around when sailing to keep the boat at a comfortable angle.

[dxg4848]

I made an interesting observation this year - I don't round up any more and maintain much better (steady) course under power in choppy/windy conditions with ballast full

I think it is a side affect of increased bow weight. I installed a windlass and made chain locker BELOW deck right on top of v-berth in very bow. I keep 100' of 1/4" chain there, which is quite heavy. But chain weight is not the only source of increased bow weight. I take in more water now in bow ballast compartment. Before I had chain the water was an inch or two below drain plug with ballast full. Now the water is an inch or two above drain plug (inside the cup around drain plug). So the front ballast compartment is completely full now. Chain weight + extra water weight significantly increased the bow weight. I also noticed that bow is now deeper in the water with ballast full. Before the water was about two inches below bottom paint at the bow and now it is almost even with bottom paint (only at the bow, stern still looks the same).

I also have new Judy B's RF jib this year that is by far better than stock jib and I thought it helped with rounding up. I was out in 15 - 18 mph winds with reefed main and full jib heeling 15 - 30 degrees for at least an hour and newer rounded up even once moving 5+ mph like a keel sail boat. Then I also noised that boat maintains much better course with less steering efforts in choppy/windy conditions under power, and it is easier to dock now too. So I think that increased bow weight made the difference.