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Macgregor 25 main sheet rigging and a few other questions.

A forum for discussing topics relating to older MacGregor/Venture sailboats.

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Macgregor 25 main sheet rigging and a few other questions.

Postby Jstephens2012 » Sat Sep 06, 2008 1:51 pm

Hi, I'm a new owner of a 1982 Mac 25. Just getting her ready to try out for the first time. Everything I need should be there, but I'm just not exactly sure how to run some of the rigging. I've got the so called "manual" which really doesn't help me much. The main thing I'm looking for is a good description or picture of someone's main sheet rigging. The only thing I've sailed before had a block and tackle going straight down to a traveler. As I can tell, this one uses some sort of "V" formation running through a system of pullys towards the back and into a cam cleat or so forth, but I have no idea "exactly how this is supposed to go. I may be able to go out and figure it out here shortly, but I haven't been able to find a good diagram, description, or best of all - some good pictures of how to rig it. That would be the best thing I could think of, besides someone actually showing me. I may be able to get an experienced guy to come meet me and show me the easiest and best ways to run all the rigging, but not sure yet. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Also, there is no boom vang, and the previous owner said he never used one with the way he rigged it. I'm going to call him too and see if he can tell me how he did it over the phone. But would a boom vang be better or easier to use with this setup? Or is it really needed at all?

Besides that, I think I know how to run the rigging and the sheet for the jib, but it would be nice if anyone had some instructions or good photos of that as well. I'll check back here soon to see if anyone has any answers/suggestions. Also, my email is deleted by Mod. I'm sure I'll be posting here some more with pictures and questions and mods as I go along. Thanks in advance for any help,

Jeff Stephens
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Re: Macgregor 25 main sheet rigging and a few other questions.

Postby CMikey » Mon Sep 08, 2008 12:01 pm

Here is a diagram I got off the web that helped me and I hope it works for you.

Mike
Naples, Fl.

Image
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Re: Macgregor 25 main sheet rigging and a few other questions.

Postby Jstephens2012 » Mon Sep 08, 2008 11:11 pm

Thanks, appreciate it. That's about how I have it rigged, except there's no block right before the cam cleat, just a padeye (I think you call it) on the swivel cam cleat. I guess I will try to mount a block behind that swivel cam cleat. Just wondering, do you guys have a block that mounts directly to the swivel cam cleat? Or does it mount to a separate eye strap behind the cam cleat or even the eye strap that the end of the main sheet is attached to? I'll try to work something out.

Also, as far as the jib sheets go, do you guys run them outside of the safety life lines and down through some padeyes leading toward the winches? Or do you run them inside of the life lines and through a pulley or padeye on top of the cabin and straight to a cam cleat? Either way it seems like the jib sheets are going to rub the life lines and cause them not to move very freely. I believe the previous owner ran them outside of the life lines through padeyes and straight to the winches. Do you guys use your winches for your jib sheets? The way things are set up on my boat, I just don't see how they can move very freely at all no matter how you run them. Maybe I'm missing something.

As for a boom vang, I don't have one and was told it wasn't necessary, but I can see holes in the boom where one could be made and attached and run down to the bottom of the mast. Seems easy enough, do you guys do this?

Another question I had... Does everyone use a topping lift? I was told this wasn't necessary either, but if you want to lower your sail, then it seems pretty necessary to me. There is a place on the masthead where it appears something was connected before. I think it would be easy enough to just either put a block there and run a rope up to it and back down to another block or just the cleat on the end of the boom. Or probably even better, make my own cable with a turnbuckle for adjustment, then attach one end to the masthead and the other to the end of the boom. It's hard to see in a lot of pics, but the latter seems to me what most boats are rigged with, perhaps not with turnbuckles, but at least some type of cable and adjustment. I'm going to try it out, and any input is appreciated.

Sorry for all the questions, I've tried to search through the topics and find things related to all of this, to mixed results. Just seems like nobody else's boat is set up exactly like this.

I can try to post a few pics tomorrow so people can see where the winches, padeyes, blocks, etc. are placed on this particular boat if that would help people out as far as giving me some advice/ideas.

Like I said, any input is greatly appreciated. I'm new at this and haven't sailed in a few years, so I'm rusty on the terminology and I've never been on a boat that was rigged in this way. Thanks.
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Re: Macgregor 25 main sheet rigging and a few other questions.

Postby Jstephens2012 » Tue Sep 09, 2008 4:04 pm

I'm going to try to take her to a local lake tomorrow and see how she does and test the way I have things rigged and decide what changes need to be made and so on. I'll try to take some pics as well and post them on the board so people can see how it's set up and how I have it rigged now and make any suggestions they see fit. Here's just a little more info for now to give people a little better idea of what I have and what I'm trying to figure out. I'm sure the pictures later will help.

I've noticed some people having winches on both sides of the top of the cabin, not sure if they use them for the jib or just for raising both sails or what. But mine doesn't have that. It has a couple of cam cleats, some jam cleats, and a regular tie off cleat on both sides of the cabin. Then on each side of the cockpit, directly behind the cabin, there is a traveler with a padeye (I think that's what you call it) for the rope to go through, followed by a winch towards the stern and a cleat behind the winches. The previous owner said he ran the jib sheets through the eyes on those travelers, then to the winches. I just don't see how you can do that without having the rope rubbing and hanging on the top or sides of the cabin, as well as the safety lifelines too. I guess I'll just have to try it out and see what works best.

I also don't have a block or any type of pulley on that swivel cam cleat that is used for the main sheet, just an eye for the rope to go through and then the cam cleat. This rubs the rope hard at a sharp angle and makes it rough sliding through when letting the main sheet out. I assume there should be a block mounted there to allow the rope to slide more freely through the eye and cam cleat. I am about to go outside right now and try a few different things and see what I can rig up.

I think I will also make my own topping lift coming down from the masthead. As for a boom-vang, I see that some people use them but apparently the previous owner of mine never did, but if it helps to have one, I can see where it would go.

Oh, and at the bottom of the mast, I have three blocks, one on each side and one aft of the mast. I currently have the jib halyard run through one side and the main halyard run through the other, then straight back to some cams on top of the cabin. I've seen other people with two blocks on one side of the mast with both halyard run on the same side back to the cockpit. I assume this is just preference and can be done either way. I've also been told that I could just cleat the halyards on the mast itself, then run the jib sheets through the blocks on either side of the bottom of the mast. I'm not sure how that would work either, but as always, any suggestions are welcome.

Thanks again for the help. I'll try to post some pics soon and I'm sure that will clarify some things.
I plan on doing a few other things and have a few other questions as well.
Should I start a new topic for each new question I have or just continue posting under my same original topic? Thanks,

 !  "Frank C":
Welcome Aboard, Jeff!
It's fine to just continue this thread for all of your rigging questions.
For your own benefit, post a new thread whenever you are "notably" changing topics.
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Re: Macgregor 25 main sheet rigging and a few other questions.

Postby Frank C » Tue Sep 09, 2008 7:47 pm

Jstephens2012 wrote: ... Oh, and at the bottom of the mast, I have three blocks, one on each side and one aft of the mast. I currently have the jib halyard run through one side and the main halyard run through the other, then straight back to some cams on top of the cabin. I've seen other people with two blocks on one side of the mast with both halyard run on the same side back to the cockpit. I assume this is just preference and can be done either way.

I've also been told that I could just cleat the halyards on the mast itself, then run the jib sheets through the blocks on either side of the bottom of the mast. I'm not sure how that would work either, but as always, any suggestions are welcome.

You surely can't use those mast blocks for the jib sheets, as you've already surmised. They'll totally screw-up your sheeting angles. Depending on your headsail, you'd usually have sheeting blocks at about midway back between mast & end of the cabin (for the jib), or somewhere along the cockpit coamings for the Genoa. I guess your M25 doesn't have sheeting tracks, so you could change sheeting positions??
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Re: Macgregor 25 main sheet rigging and a few other questions.

Postby Jstephens2012 » Wed Sep 10, 2008 12:40 am

OK, so here are some pics of what is on my boat and where it's located.
The first four are pics of the hardware and rigging on each side of the deck, on top of the cabin.
I just temporarily ran the jib halyard and main halyard straight to the cleats on the back top of the cabin, I'm not going to keep them routed in that EXACT position, but close to it.
Image Image
Image Image

Now these next two are taken from the cockpit, facing the bow. There is a rail (is this called the toe rail/jib track?) on either side of the cockpit directly behind the cabin. I am assuming this is where I would lead the jib sheets to the winches. But does the sheet pass through that adjustable eye or does a block attach to that eye first and serve as a jib fairlead?
Image Image

This one is the swivel cam cleat that is located on the port side stern in which the main sheet is run. Again, does it simply pass through the round eye before that cam cleat, or shouldn't there be a block there first allowing it to move more freely?
Image

And by the way, does anyone know what those two brackets located at the rear of the cockpit were used for?
Image

Thanks again.
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Re: Macgregor 25 main sheet rigging and a few other questions.

Postby MBertin » Wed Sep 10, 2008 7:04 am

Hi Jef,

I recently buy a MCGregor 25. It sail excellent The 2 bracket behind is used to slide a piece of wood that will serve as a support for the mast when it is down.

Keep asking question because I am also learning. I just recently pull out my boat from wate due I have to go travelling for business. I will surely asking question for the winter preparation. There are a lot of experience people on this forum that could help.

See you

Marc.
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Re: Macgregor 25 main sheet rigging and a few other questions.

Postby Jstephens2012 » Wed Sep 10, 2008 4:31 pm

OK, thanks. I'm going to cover a few more things here and I'll try to but in BOLD PRINT, the main topic of each paragraph so that you guys can skim through and read the things that catch your eye in which you may have some interest or input. I would start new topics, but by the end of the week, I'd have the whole first page lined up with nothing but new topics an posts and questions from me, so I'm going to try to keep it all in here, until I get a better idea of all these basics and have more specific questions, pics, mods. to post. Is that cool with everyone?

OK, I can see how those REAR PULPIT BRACKETS could be used to support the boom when it's down. It's just strange that the previous owner didn't know what it was for nor did the original owner before him. I haven't seen any pics of these being used either. I suppose I can just built a wooden support with a rubber V at the top and some eyes to attach a bungee cord to. One thing I don't understand, is why they are at an angle? Wny not straight up in the center? Maybe to keep out of the way of the tiller when it's installed? I guess that makes sense. Does anyone possibly have a picture of how they have this set up if in fact they still use it? I can see how i could easily build a support to fit here, though I see a lot of people with some type of metal pole support in the center of the cockpit or on the stern, and many who just strap it on top of the pulpits. However, I plan on making or buying a mast raising system, so it would be nice to go ahead and build and install something at the stern to support the mast and hold it up at an angle so it would be easier to winch up into place. I'd like to make a mast raising system with a 12v electric winch.

How does the Macgregor MAST RAISING SYSTEM fit onto a stock Mac 25? Does the whole metal plate (mast step) have to be replaced in order to have a place for the (gin pole?) to mount? Or has anyone found a way to mount a pole to the factory Macgregor mast step. I was thinking of custom building a pole that could mount to the stock mast step, or possibly weld a bracket onto the front of the trailer where I can (with a couple of heavy duty bolts,) install and take off a custom made pole with a roller on top to keep the winch cable off of the bow and pulpit. I was thinking about making the pole out of either some square steel tubing, or maybe some heavy duty round tubing, (either galvanized steel or aluminum) such as you would use as a fence post, (not the small ones, I'm talking like 3" or so.) From there, I could either mount an electric winch directly to the pole, similar to how the hand winch is mounted on the Mac mast raising system, or mount the winch to a bracket in the bed of my truck, so as to give it and easier angle to pull from. I'd run the remote for the winch long enough so that I could operate it while standing in the cockpit steadying the mast as she raises and making sure rigging isn't getting hung. You guys have any thoughts about this or has anyone already done something similar? I read through all the mods. I've seen where guys that had an anchor locker on the bow mounted a 12v winch there to raise the mast, but being as that my Mac 25 doesn't have that, I'd rather mount it outside the boat (on a bracket made and mounted to the trailer or to the bed of my truck). All of this would be completely removable, a couple of bolts or pins to hold the winch on and take it off and a couple of bolts to hold the guiding pole (gine pole?) in place wherever I mount it. (Sorry if I get some of this terminology wrong, I try to research it and find the correct names and describe what I'm talking about as well as possible if I'm not sure exactly the proper name for it.) If fact, let me start a new paragraph in order to ...

clarify a few things I referred to improperly...
I had referred to "padeyes" a few times when that wasn't the correct terminology for what I was describing. I do have a padeye on both the port and starboard quarters which the previous owner had one block on one side for the the main sheet to run through and then back up to the double block on the boom, and on the other side the padeye was used for the end of the main sheet to be tied off (or clipped to in this case). I had incorrectly referred to other pieces of hardware which I believe may be called fairleads or deck eyes. They are the round black plastic eyes with a metal center for ropes to run through that are mounted in a few places on the deck (top of cabin), and also on the rails/sliders located on the cockpit coaming directly behind the cabin. (I assume the top of the cabin may actually be reffered to as the bulkhead, is that correct?) There is also another one I referred to as a padeye on the swivel cam cleat which is on the port quarter mounted to the cockpit coaming, and is where the end of the main sheet is run and controlled from. As seen in the diagram above which Mike so graciously posted, there is a swivel block that seems to be either attached to the swivel cam cleat, or directly behind it, allowing much smoother movement and operation of the main sheet, especially when trying to let some sheet out. Well, for one, mine is set up the opposite of the diagram above, the swivel cam cleat is mounted on the port side and the padeye with the block is located on the starboard. I assume that's all personal preference and can be changed easily enough if needed. But as I stated in a post above, I don't have that block that it shows the main sheet running through right before it goes into the (fairlead?) on the swivel cam cleat. So as it is right now, the main sheet does not move very freely and to let out some sheet, you have to turn the swivel to allow it to align better and release the sheet more easily, and you have to push the boom if you're going to get it to move very far. It's also rough on the rope, as you can see in the picture above, the rope on it now is very soft and "fuzzy", pretty worn, and I have a new one to replace it, but feel like I need to solve the problem of adding the missing block first. The previous owner said he just ran the sheet through the eye on the swivel cam cleat and that's how he used it. So anyway, I can either add another padeye directly behind the swivel cam cleat and attach a swivel block to it, or I can attach a swiveling block to the padeye that the end of the main sheet is attached to, and then cleat off the end of the main sheet a few inches over on the stern to a regular cleat which is already there, I believe once used to cleat off a line used for raising and lowering the outboard motor. But doing the latter will change the angle in which the sheet runs up to the fiddle block on the end of the boom, thus possibly altering the performance of the rig and the ability of the sheet to move freely. So it seems to me, unless there is a swivel cam cleat with a built in swiveling block attachment which I can use to replace the one I have now, the best and easiest thing to do would be to install another padeye directly behind the swivel cam cleat, between it and the other padeye which the end of the main sheet is attached. Sorry this is getting so long-winded. But I'm just trying to figure this out so I can #!: get it on the water for a test run asap, and #2: know what I need to to later to get it set up permanently the way it needs to be. So, any input on solving this problem or does anyone have any pics of how theirs is set up? My pic above of the main sheet setup wasn't so good, I can take another showing the whole thing, and then a closeup with detail of the padeye and swivel cam cleat I keep speaking of and their location.

I believe I've figured out how to run the jib sheets. There are two of those round plastic "fairleads" mounted on the top of the cabin (bulkhead?), one on either side at the very edge, maybe a couple of feet behind the mast. Then there are two more, one on each of the sliders/rails (maybe called the jib rail?) located down on the front of the cockpit coamings, right behind the cabin as I mentioned earlier. You can see all of these in the pics I posted above. From a picture or two I've seen, people have run the jib sheets through these eyes ,"fairleads" then outside of the safety lifelines and the shrouds, and down to the (jib rail or track) on the cockpit coaming and to the winches. Others I've seen have nothing passing through the foremost eyes or fairleads but have the jib sheet run outside of the shrouds and lifelines and straight down to the fairlead on the track and to the winches. The latter looks to be the most commonly used method, but still it seems as if it would cause a lot of rubbing on the fiberglass corners of the cabin and get hung up and rub on the shrouds and lifelines. But is this just the way it is, or is there a better way, including blocks somewhere for the jib sheets to run through to make things run more smoothly and keep the hangups and rubbing down to a minimum? And if you don't use the foremost fairleads on either side of the cabin top for the jib, then what are they used for, the genoa or a spinnaker or something?

I don't have a spin. I have a very nice barely used genoa. I've never used one before. Do it's sheets run the same as your standard jib, or differently? I've also got a good twist locking telescoping whisker pole. I've never used one of these either, but have read about how to use them. I assume they come in handy especially with the genoa, but do you guys use them with your regular jib as well?

OK, I think I've covered enough on this post. Hope you guys don't mind and that some of you can help and/or learn some from these postings as well. As always, any input appreciated. I'm about to go work on her some now, and I'll take some better pictures and anything else I have a question about I will post with a specific picture of it as well on my next post. Thanks alot.

Jeff
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Re: Macgregor 25 main sheet rigging and a few other questions.

Postby c130king » Thu Sep 11, 2008 2:50 am

Jeff,

I was considering replying yesterday but I don't know the Mac25 (never even seen one) so I thought I would stay out and let somebody with a little more practical knowledge help you out. But you don't seem to have too many answers yet so I will go ahead and give you my $0.02 worth. Take it for what it is worth...

Looking at your pics the "toe rail" is the ridge built along the outer edge of your cabin tob. The rail on the sides of your cockpit coaming is the "T-Track" and is used for mounting adjustable blocks for controlling various lines. On the :macm: and :macx: there are 2 sets of these tracks, one set on the cabin top and one set on the cockpit coaming. The forward tracks are normally for the jib blocks which is normally sheeted inside the shrouds. The sheet runs from the jib, inside the shroudsd, to a block on the cabin top, and then back to the winch.

A genoa sail is normally sheeted outside the shrouds and the sheets come back to the blocks on the side of the cockpit and then to the winch. And on :macm: and :macx: the winchs are normally up on top of the cabin.

My thought is that for a jib on your boat the sheets are run through the fairleads on your cabin top and then back to the winch. If you want to use your Genoa you would run the sheets out side the shrouds to the fairleads on your T-Track. I guess fairleads will work as well as blocks. I may be wrong on that.

As for the whisker pole...I don't have one and have never used one. But I have seen guys, when running pretty much dead down wind, pole out their Genoa on one side and have their main out on the opposite side...otherwise known as "wing-on-wing". I did this once but used my bud to hold the boat hook out to keep the Genoa out.

Image

Hopefully some of the other Mac25 owners will pipe up and help out with your other questions.

Good Luck,
Jim
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Re: Macgregor 25 main sheet rigging and a few other questions.

Postby noahvale » Thu Sep 11, 2008 9:10 am

I have a Mac 25 as well. I am in Baton Rouge. I don't think the mast raising system that they use on the new Macs will work for you, since you don't have a hinge at the foot of your mast. I built an A-frame from 1" electrical conduit that works great, I use a block and tackle and easily raise and lower the mast by myself. You are welcome to come by and check it out when you are in the area, I live right off I-12.
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Re: Macgregor 25 main sheet rigging and a few other questions.

Postby noahvale » Thu Sep 11, 2008 9:13 am

Jstephens2012 wrote:Another question I had... Does everyone use a topping lift?

My Mac 25 has a short cable with a shackle attached to the rear stay that is used to hold the mast up when the sail is down. It works well.
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Re: Macgregor 25 main sheet rigging and a few other questions.

Postby noahvale » Thu Sep 11, 2008 9:32 am

Jstephens2012 wrote:Thanks, appreciate it. That's about how I have it rigged, except there's no block right before the cam cleat, just a padeye (I think you call it) on the swivel cam cleat. I guess I will try to mount a block behind that swivel cam cleat. Just wondering, do you guys have a block that mounts directly to the swivel cam cleat? Or does it mount to a separate eye strap behind the cam cleat or even the eye strap that the end of the main sheet is attached to? I'll try to work something out.

My boat has a block on the swivel. Someone probably removed the one that was on your boat, it's standard equipment on the Mac 25.
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Re: Macgregor 25 main sheet rigging and a few other questions.

Postby MBertin » Fri Sep 12, 2008 11:47 pm

Hy Guys,

Still not able to post picture screen shot. So this is a link to the album "http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2684197700103943889kSFfxR" . Not sure either why they did not put the bracket in the middle for this mast support. May be no access behind due rudder installation.

How do you post so large picture shot in you discussion?

marc,
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Re: Macgregor 25 main sheet rigging and a few other questions.

Postby MBertin » Sat Sep 13, 2008 1:15 pm

Yeah it work, I can post pictures. Thank you for the help. It work when I use Photobucket.com as propose from various member.
This is my sailboat:
Image
Image
Image

And this is a better picture showing the mast support.
Image


Marc,
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Re: Macgregor 25 main sheet rigging and a few other questions.

Postby johnnyonspot » Sat Sep 13, 2008 2:30 pm

Hi, just checking in here. Kind of skimmed all the long posts. I am pretty familiar with the Mac 25, having just sold mine. You asked about a boom vang. The Mac 25 did not come with one because it would interfere with the mains'l "roller reefing," in that the boom is designed to spin on the gooseneck and mainsheet connection in order to "wind up" or roll in the main onto the boom. IMHO this is an impractical, and cheap, design. You are better off either not reefing, or having reef points installed, and installing a boom vang. Without the vang you have very little control over mains'l shape, and thus will not be able to squeeze as much performance out of the boat. Unless you sail in pretty hairy conditions, you don't need the ability to reef; either drop one of the sails, or furl your headsail all or partially in if you have roller reefing headsail.

Those brackets on the aft of the cockpit transom are for a mast crutch, as you've already surmised.

As far as a topping lift is concerned, they are nice to have but not absolutely necessary. For one, they can be replaced with a rigid boom vang. So if you are looking at installing the vang, perhaps it would be a good idea to just go for the rigid vang and kill two birds as they say. Also, you should have a "pigtail," which is the short line hanging from the backstay that you can clip to the end of the boom in order to hold the boom up whilst not sailing. Just remember to disconnect the pigtail before raising the mains'l, otherwise it could be problematic for you.

Any other specific questions, don't hesitate to ask, even if they have already been asked above, as I am not really up to reading all of those long posts.

You may want to consider getting some EZ Cleats from Bill at Boats4Sail. They are extremely convenient and awesome for single-handing.
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