26 classic vs. an X or M?

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saltyrogue
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26 classic vs. an X or M?

Post by saltyrogue » Sun Oct 10, 2010 12:30 pm

I have read statements that the 26 d and s are faster under sail than the X or M models. I am curious if these statements are true, and if so, what is the reason. I realize that some sailing performance is lost when the gap between sailboat and speedboat is bridged, but where are the cuts taken from? I assume that hull shape has much to do with it. Perhaps sail area also? Or has the M neutralized the compromise with its rotating mast, solid ballast, and other changes over the X. As I watch the snow creep down the mountainsides and the lakes freeze over at nights, I have much more time to ponder such questions rather than sailing.

dave

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Trouts Dream
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Re: 26 classic vs. an X or M?

Post by Trouts Dream » Sun Oct 10, 2010 3:40 pm

I may be corrected but I believe most of the improvement in performance is in the haul direction (windward) versus reaching (downwind). A lot has to do with the amount of boat presented to the wind, the S and Ds have significantly lower profile than an X or M along with a weighted center board that allows the S or D to remain less heeled and a closer heading to the wind.

I relinquish the floor to those that have firtst hand experience sailing both boat designs.

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dvideohd
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Re: 26 classic vs. an X or M?

Post by dvideohd » Sun Oct 10, 2010 7:06 pm

I you get the the chance...

Go sail in a 'D, 'S, and 'X or M'....

talk to owners face to face - about likes, dislikes...

I wanted to sail... least cost - for what meet my needs... So it was a 'D. An 'S might have been a bit bette choice for where I am going.... (Texas Lakes and the Gulf....)

Others who live in UK, AUS, or Pacific NW - they can talk about tides, and the need to have a "speedy boat" - that will deal with much stronger currents....

Sounds simplistic - but it REALLY is about meeting your NEEDS... and both the X and M will do that very well...

G'Luck
--jerry

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Re: 26 classic vs. an X or M?

Post by Catigale » Sun Oct 10, 2010 7:35 pm

Freeboard definitely better on the S and D boats - also the transom release on the X and M isnt as clean as the 'fast sailers'

,,,and some of them have real keels too..

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Sumner
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Re: 26 classic vs. an X or M?

Post by Sumner » Sun Oct 10, 2010 8:09 pm

Trouts Dream wrote:.......A lot has to do with the amount of boat presented to the wind, the S and Ds have significantly lower profile than an X or M along with a weighted center board that allows the S or D to remain less heeled and a closer heading to the wind......
The S and D are also water ballast like the X and M and the centerboard is 'not weighted', so they can be tender initially like the X and M. The S stands for a swing centerboard and the D stands for a dagger centerboard. The D's were replace in '90 with the S which was then replaced in the mid '90's by the X. As was mentioned above the free-board is less on the S and D and from what people say that does help the S and D going into the wind, but I have no personal experience on the different models.

Ruth and I had never sailed before and learned without instruction other than help here on line and what we read. Instruction would of been good, but it just wasn't available to us. The S we have was very easy to learn on. Well at least learn on well enough to sail from point A to B, not necessarily fast in our case yet :( .

We considered an X, but bought an S. We love our S and would get the same boat again in an instance, but like Jerry said it fits our needs and I can see the X and M fitting other people's needs.

c ya,

Sum

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vizwhiz
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Re: 26 classic vs. an X or M?

Post by vizwhiz » Sun Oct 10, 2010 10:27 pm

My shopping has been for an S. After several people's input on here, and the limitations of tow vehicles, weight, time, where I am, etc. I think starting with a classic is going to work better for us. Not ready to buy, but have pretty much settled on what we are going for...and why:

1. water ballast - boat is about 1700# empty w/o ballast, vs. 2300-2500# empty for the X and M (feel free to correct my numbers). Fully loaded, the S is easily a whole notch lighter when it comes to tow vehicles. For us, this means I don't have to upgrade BOTH my car and boat, can use the truck I'll have available to me.

2. swing keel - as you mentioned, shallow water...in the Tampa Bay area, west coast of Florida, lots of shallows, flats, spoil islands, oyster bars, (manatees) - all in the same places where you'd be likely to anchor - or even to sail in some cases. The swing keel apparently would push up and out of the way, where the daggerboard would go crunch. (Thanks to all for your input on this important point - made a big difference to me!)

3. displacement hull, made to sail, small motor - wifey and I would like to have, and eventually I'm sure will get, an M - but for now, the fun of sailing and the allure of being out on the water is what is beckoning us, not the go-fast motorboat part. Like Sumner, we want to explore, to play, to sit and watch the sun set...and the romantic side of sailing verses powering is attractive to us right now. Also, the mini-motors don't cost as much for upkeep. And the classics are supposed to be some of the fastest sailboats of their size/configuration - so it should still be an exciting ride.

As I pointed out, I'm not quite ready to buy, but am looking at what's out there, and am asking a lot of questions and reading - I only posted because I've been thinking of some of the very same things as what you mentioned! It's good to go through this exercise and really hammer on the "why".

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Re: 26 classic vs. an X or M?

Post by Catigale » Mon Oct 11, 2010 6:40 am

Can you sneak an S or D boat onto a Class I hitch (<2000 pounds) legally??

Looks like it might make it if you keep loading light..

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Sumner
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Re: 26 classic vs. an X or M?

Post by Sumner » Mon Oct 11, 2010 7:58 am

Catigale wrote:Can you sneak an S or D boat onto a Class I hitch (<2000 pounds) legally??

Looks like it might make it if you keep loading light..
The boat and trailer all empty I think is listed at 2200 lbs.

I think most people find that they are at least 2600-2800 lbs. going down the road. By adding the second axle, longer frame, third trailer bunk, both outboards on the boat, 30-40 gallons of water and everything else we are way over 3000 lbs., but I don't know by how much,

Sum

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Re: 26 classic vs. an X or M?

Post by Catigale » Mon Oct 11, 2010 8:13 pm

Thanks Sum...makes it solid Class II or III

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Re: 26 classic vs. an X or M?

Post by Rick Westlake » Wed Oct 13, 2010 7:36 am

Here's an easy way to answer the question for yourself -

I've been looking for a 2.5-hp dinghy kicker on Craigslist, and I happened upon this boat for sale in Cambridge, MD.

Looks like a Mac 26D - it has that daggerboard trunk; it also has a full-out marine head, what looks like an Origo alcohol stove, a 6.5-horse kicker motor, and a good-looking aftermarket trailer. The ad says "$5000 OBO"

http://annapolis.craigslist.org/boa/1999824508.html

~
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Norca
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Re: 26 classic vs. an X or M?

Post by Norca » Wed Oct 13, 2010 8:29 am

I've been shopping (dreaming) for a sailboat for some time now.
The admiral is also more and more interested in upgrading from the 16 footer we sold last summer
and I think we will put in an order for an M this fall or winter,
I'm just curious to know how bad the powersailors sail compared to a
"S" or "D".
If we would leave the marina in a 10-15 knot breeze and sail to somewhere 20 miles away.
How much longer in a powersailor?
Seconds? :P minutes? :o hours? :evil:
I like the M for its cabin space , engine power and traileability, just trying to figure out how much performance
I will have to give up.

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RussMT
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Re: 26 classic vs. an X or M?

Post by RussMT » Wed Oct 13, 2010 10:55 am

Norca wrote:If we would leave the marina in a 10-15 knot breeze and sail to somewhere 20 miles away.
How much longer in a powersailor?
Seconds? :P minutes? :o hours? :evil:
I like the M for its cabin space , engine power and traileability, just trying to figure out how much performance
I will have to give up.
Oh, so many variables here. The S/D are pure sailboats. They sail well and if sailing is your primary sport, that is probably your boat. The X/M are compromise boats that don't point well and in my opinion sail best with heavier wind or on the beam. My guess is they are about 10% slower than the S/D boats overall. Pointing to windward, the S/D will do MUCH better. I've been able to beat a "S" mostly because the captain didn't know how to sail. In fact, I can beat many sailors who don't know what they are doing. But then the J boats make me look like I'm going backwards.

But sailing performance is only one factor. All these boats trailer fairly well. Maybe S/D are a tad lighter. The X/M have more room and more motor. If that's important to you, factor that in. Space is a very personal thing. Frankly we find our M pretty cramped while others with more crew don't find it so.

For me, sailing is not a competition. If I get there 1/2 hour later than my buddy in the "S" I'm okay. Destination sailing is not for me. I prefer to just be out there moving, who cares where or how fast.

Aesthetically, I prefer the more traditional S/D Macs. They are nice looking boats that sail well. The X/M are too modern and boxy, but some don't think so. I really think it's a shame Roger doesn't make the S/D's anymore.


--Russ

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Re: 26 classic vs. an X or M?

Post by RussMT » Wed Oct 13, 2010 10:59 am

Norca wrote:I think we will put in an order for an M this fall or winter
I'm not familiar with the market right now. Production is down from what it was and so is demand.

When I bought my M, demand was high and the wait time in ordering one was long. You might check with a dealer to see if this is the case. ...or just buy a used S/D.


--Russ

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madguy
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Re: 26 classic vs. an X or M?

Post by madguy » Wed Oct 13, 2010 12:46 pm

We recently parted with our beloved 26S in favour of the 26X, mainly because we wanted the extra room inside.

I have to be completly honest, the X doe'snt sail half as well as the S does.

There is way more free board on the X compared to the S, the stearing seemed much better on the S with the tiller, it was much easier to board from the pontoon as the sides are much lower, and it sailed much faster than the X does.

I now often have to look behind when stearing to see if the rudders are there as often nothing happens so im considering having larger rudders made.

We are not allowed to use the petrol outboards were we sail so we have to use a 12volt engine instead, this wasnt to much problem with the S however it really stuggles on the X especially if you get any wind on either side.

All in all in our opinion the trusty old S is a way better sailer than the X, however the X has much more room inside and is more comfterble for staying aboard, so with that in mind we will persavere with the X.

After looking at the M, and speaking to people here that have moved up to the M from the X i am told that the M is even worse as its taller than the X.
What put me off the M was the boarding at the rear is much smaller than the X and the cockpit seems smaller

Hope this all makes sense, good luck.

Madguy :evil:

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Re: 26 classic vs. an X or M?

Post by wallville » Wed Oct 13, 2010 2:21 pm

I just sold my '90 26s for 4k. Glad too, my 07 26m was supposed to be here 2 weeks ago. :|

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