Tattoo 26 Production Suspended, factory relocating

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Re: Tattoo 26 Production Suspended, factory relocating

Post by Gabby_SC » Tue Jul 21, 2015 7:26 pm

Laura, The Sea Fox sign is still up and occasionally there are vehicles parked out front. There isn't much going on. Maybe a venture to double up and make use of lots of space. There was an announcement of the building of a Volvo plant out in that area. Hey if it works out I'll volunteer to be coffee room guard and all around get in the way person. (retirement sucks)

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Re: Tattoo 26 Production Suspended, factory relocating

Post by PEN24 » Wed Jul 22, 2015 3:05 am

Just an observation: "every model eventually runs its course." - may not be the best decision justification in the whole wide world. A model that continues to sell and has steady demand can continue as long as demand continues.
Agreed, instead of ending production why not update the model, plumb bow, swim platform, jet pump motor option etc.. existing customers are likely to upgrade over time.

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Re: Tattoo 26 Production Suspended, factory relocating

Post by RussMT » Wed Jul 22, 2015 9:22 am

PEN24 wrote:
Just an observation: "every model eventually runs its course." - may not be the best decision justification in the whole wide world. A model that continues to sell and has steady demand can continue as long as demand continues.
Agreed, instead of ending production why not update the model, plumb bow, swim platform, jet pump motor option etc.. existing customers are likely to upgrade over time.
Changes to a mold are extremely expensive and risky. Will the market receive it well? Hunter tried to do that. Jet pump=more expense which changes the entire market of the boat.

Seems with the 22, a new model is exactly what they are trying.

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Re: Tattoo 26 Production Suspended, factory relocating

Post by BOAT » Wed Jul 22, 2015 10:01 am

The 26 can't be made anymore. It's market is gone, and without a high volume market the boat would need to increase in price well above 60 grand to make a profit. The only reason the 26 made any money at all was because of the high volume. Take away the high volume and the boat is no longer profitable to produce at a reasonable price low enough to reach the high volume market!

Why do I say the market is gone? Because Hunter and others that already have the production molds and lines ready to make trailer-able boats are not making any. With MAC gone they should be jumping all over the market, but they are not. That means something is different now. The term "existing customers" might be the key phrase: I AM an existing customer and I think I represent the market segment better than most of you because I am a working Joe, I don't own a business, and I am not wealthy. So what's up with my kind? Well, we are getting old. I am getting old, and I don't see any young guys coming along to replace me. I never have any 20 or 30 something guys coming up to me at the ramp to ask about the boat - it's always OLD guys that come to look. The market is dying off, I am dying off.

Then, even if there WAS a 'big market' out there here is the OTHER problem:
You need a cheap price to capture the high volume market - you need a huge expensive plant to pump out boats at high volume to get a price that low. It's a catch 22 - a viscous circle, one needs the other.

The bottom line is that without a huge plant and high volume production the Mac will just be a boat that is just as expensive as any other boat built in Florida, and built the way most boats are made in Florida:
One at a time, over a long period of time, with a LOT of labor, and expensive.

It was the high volume model invented in California that made the whole thing work - year round production near lots of industrial suppliers and good roads and cheap labor. That's why all the builders were there in Orange County. Without the huge volume market the whole concept is dead. Without volume it's better to just make one at a time with a lot of labor hours in small shops. (i.e. Florida).

This presents a huge marketing issue for a boat company that has a reputation for being the low cost leader. No one is going to take a MAC over another boat at the same price because MAC will always have the reputation of low cost and less quality. The one at a time shops in Florida are known for high quality and craftsmanship, not low cost. Put one against the other at the same price and who do YOU think people will buy? People go for the status of the "quality product" every time if the price is the same. Volkswagen taught us that. The Jetta is as luxurious as the high end Toyota but VW can't sell the Jetta at that price. So they made the Passant which is just a Jetta with BMW like luxury components just to compete with Toyota. Yet, the base Jetta is actually better quality than the mid-model Toyota! VW can't escape their image.

No one thinks of a Volkswagen as a luxury car. Yet, they do make luxury cars! But no one will take the VW luxury car over another brand at the same price. People will always go for the name brand that has the higher quality status regardless of what the reality is of the product quality. That's marketing 101. Volkswagen learned that the hard way as they transitioned out of the beetle in the 1970's.

So, should TATTOO abandon their roots and go into the 'luxury boat' market? That's the real question.
(That's what Roger is doing).

Starting a boat company in this day and age? Wow, that's a hard one - no Stanford MBA graduates today are proposing boat companies as their start-up - that's a hard one. I would expect TATTO to take a lot of time on this one. But no matter what they decide you can bet your dollar that the 26M is dead dead like brown bread. The era is over.

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Re: Tattoo 26 Production Suspended, factory relocating

Post by kurz » Wed Jul 22, 2015 11:38 am

Well, maybe you are right.
BUT: For me it is sad that the change from the father to the doughter is so hard.
I thnik they should much earlier look for the new factory place. Then go for some years with the :macm: , just go on with the good network over the whole world.

If they get much money out and stil have time they could build a new boat like the :tat22:. To put a new boat in production is MUCH MORE expensive than to go on with an etablished model like the :macm:
I think they change to much at the same time: Change the boss, change the City, change the product, lose all dealer connections :-(

And: Who says that the :tat22: will be better selling than the :tat26: ???
In not one test review they talked about a too large boat... ???

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Re: Tattoo 26 Production Suspended, factory relocating

Post by jbpatents » Wed Jul 22, 2015 12:15 pm

"No one thinks of a Volkswagen as a luxury car."

Haha, no kidding. You forgot the VW Phaeton - a technology leader that wouldn't sell. Why, because they tried to compete with Benz and BMW with the People's Car nameplate.

http://www.wired.com/2015/01/well-didnt ... go-figure/

WHEN YOU PAY $70,000 for a car, you expect certain things. Leather. Fancy technology. A smooth and quiet ride. The Volkswagen Phaeton had it all. Running a W12 engine—essentially two V6 engines meshed together—it was the first VW to feature radar adaptive cruise control and adaptive air suspension. It was a technological marvel. And when it was introduced to US consumers, it bombed.

Why? Because it was missing the most important thing that comes with a luxury price: A luxury nameplate.

Conceived by then-chairman of Volkswagen Ferdinand Piëch, the Phaeton was meant to compete against full-sized luxury cars like the Mercedes S-Class, the BMW 7-series and, weirdly, Volkswagen Group’s own Audi A8. Built on the same platform as the Bentley Continental GT, the Phaeton was launched in 2002. In the US, it started for around $70,000 but could quickly top $85,000 fully loaded.

Piëch insisted the car meet 10 key parameters. Most were kept secret, but one of them was this: The Phaeton should be able to drive all day at 86 mph, with an outside temperature of 122 degrees, and the air conditioning should be able to maintain an interior temperature of 71.6 degrees throughout. And it did it! It also had a dehumidifier and a door that popped down over the climate vents, acting as a sort of radiator. The result was a car that was as warm or cool as the passenger wanted, without having to suffer something as dreadful as air blowing on their face. Nice. It was also, as a result of its price, about as far from a People’s Car as you can get.

“People who don’t know that the car is related to the Audi A8 see that it’s really expensive with a VW badge,” says Karl Brauer, an auto analyst with Kelly Blue Book. “People who are in the know, they know what you’re really getting is a budget priced Audi A8. One group was just much smaller than the other group.”

In America, buyers are very brand conscious. Most car shoppers looking to spend $70,000 are going to want it to come with some cachet, regardless of how wonderful the car itself is. That’s why Kia and Hyundai have had trouble moving their upmarket K900 and Equus sedans. “That’s a market that’s hard to make any ground on because it’s not that large,” says Brauer. “To come in there with a Volkswagen and expect any volume is not really very smart planning.”

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Re: Tattoo 26 Production Suspended, factory relocating

Post by BOAT » Wed Jul 22, 2015 12:25 pm

Thus, as described above illustrates the problem with an "Upscale Mac26" or call it a Tattoo or whatever - the issue will be the same as described above.

You CAN put more money and features into the boat, but you CAN'T get the money back out. The people won't pay - they want a fancy nameplate. If it still looks like an M boat there is no way to market it as anything else. The people will spend the same money on a nameplate boat.

And the glaring fact is: It still looks like an M boat, and no amount of white paint or chrome or fancy decals will change that. If looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, any boater will know: It's a duck!

An entire mold re-design is in order if an upscale to the 26M is to be successful. In the case of the VW car, the solution to a luxury unit seemed easy. Same with the MAC - it seems easy to us. Just take a M boat and add teak, and hand crafted interiors and state of the art electronics and fancy liners and reefers, hot pressure water and showers with a nice head - you CAN do all that to the M boat. It's totally possible. And in fact it's a boat that we might even consider, but what about the REAL luxury boat market out there? You think THEY will seriously consider it? Why should they? If your rich, is price a driving force anyways??

The 26M is a boat designed for a very specific huge market of middle class post war baby boomers. That market is passing away.

The 26M is DEAD.

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Re: Tattoo 26 Production Suspended, factory relocating

Post by jbpatents » Wed Jul 22, 2015 12:55 pm

This is too bad, as but for the 26M I would not have gotten into sailing. And unfortunately I don't see much future for the 22 either. I was on the Bene First 20 and could see the built quality (references to IKEA boat aside), but it was much too crammed inside compared to the 26M. Even at same price I would have bought the 26M - and it's double the price. I'm not sure how much the First 20 sells, but I doubt it sells as much as the 26M sold in the US. Maybe for sailing schools. From what I see, young people prefer to buy a power boat and have all the water toys that go with it. As simple as the 26M is to launch and sail, anytime I launch my Bayliner I think to myself I wish the 26M was that easy. Family and friends all prefer to take the Bayliner out over the 26M. So, I don't foresee the young generation going for a 22' sailboat, selling at a price of a Bayliner, Tahoe, etc.

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Re: Tattoo 26 Production Suspended, factory relocating

Post by dlandersson » Wed Jul 22, 2015 1:18 pm

"Yeah, and you're ugly too". - shamelessly plagiarising Bill Cosby :P
BOAT wrote:I am getting old, and I don't see any young guys coming along to replace me. I never have any 20 or 30 something guys coming up to me at the ramp to ask about the boat - it's always OLD guys that come to look. The market is dying off, I am dying off.

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Re: Tattoo 26 Production Suspended, factory relocating

Post by BOAT » Wed Jul 22, 2015 1:19 pm

jbpatents wrote:This is too bad, as but for the 26M I would not have gotten into sailing. And unfortunately I don't see much future for the 22 either. I was on the Bene First 20 and could see the built quality (references to IKEA boat aside), but it was much too crammed inside compared to the 26M. Even at same price I would have bought the 26M - and it's double the price. I'm not sure how much the First 20 sells, but I doubt it sells as much as the 26M sold in the US. Maybe for sailing schools. From what I see, young people prefer to buy a power boat and have all the water toys that go with it. As simple as the 26M is to launch and sail, anytime I launch my Bayliner I think to myself I wish the 26M was that easy. Family and friends all prefer to take the Bayliner out over the 26M. So, I don't foresee the young generation going for a 22' sailboat, selling at a price of a Bayliner, Tahoe, etc.

Your right, the young people won't go for it. The only young people into sailing are those with a family background, (parents who sailed or had boats) - and most of those family's are more on the wealthy side. They can afford dock fees and luxury boats. Wealthy people (be they young or old) are not going to deal with the hassle of a trailer sail boat.

I always get the same response from other sailors who have money when they ask what kind of boat I have; when I tell them I have a trailer-able sailboat they say: "Oh, that's way too much work!"

Even the guys here who have MACS who are 'men of substance' also have other more luxurious boats.

They are too rich to deal with that kind of hassle - trailer sail boats are for poor people like me, not wealthy ones. Trying to build a luxury sailboat for the trailer-able market is sort of an oxymoron.

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Re: Tattoo 26 Production Suspended, factory relocating

Post by dlandersson » Wed Jul 22, 2015 1:21 pm

And here's why I disagree with your thinking. If what you write is true for the :tat26: , it's also true for the :tat22: . 8)

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Re: Tattoo 26 Production Suspended, factory relocating

Post by jbpatents » Wed Jul 22, 2015 1:27 pm

dlandersson wrote:And here's why I disagree with your thinking. If what you write is true for the :tat26: , it's also true for the :tat22: . 8)
Exactly, which is why I don't see a future for the :tat22: . Just my 2 cents - maybe not worth much more than that.

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Re: Tattoo 26 Production Suspended, factory relocating

Post by BOAT » Wed Jul 22, 2015 1:39 pm

jbpatents wrote:
dlandersson wrote:And here's why I disagree with your thinking. If what you write is true for the :tat26: , it's also true for the :tat22: . 8)
Exactly, which is why I don't see a future for the :tat22: . Just my 2 cents - maybe not worth much more than that.
I do indeed think the 22 is a big gamble, BUT, if I am a good example of the "market" then I must say that if I had it all to do all over again I think I would have gone for the 22 foot boat over the 26. As an older guy just looking to tow a boat to places here and there the 22 makes more sense. I think the Tattoo people might know something about the market for a 22 that we do not. If there are a lot of people out there like me, then I think there is a market for the 22.

But it is, like I said, to me: a big gamble.

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Re: Tattoo 26 Production Suspended, factory relocating

Post by RussMT » Wed Jul 22, 2015 3:04 pm

kurz wrote:Well, maybe you are right.
BUT: For me it is sad that the change from the father to the doughter is so hard.
I thnik they should much earlier look for the new factory place. Then go for some years with the :macm: , just go on with the good network over the whole world.

If they get much money out and stil have time they could build a new boat like the :tat22:. To put a new boat in production is MUCH MORE expensive than to go on with an etablished model like the :macm:
I think they change to much at the same time: Change the boss, change the City, change the product, lose all dealer connections :-(

And: Who says that the :tat22: will be better selling than the :tat26: ???
In not one test review they talked about a too large boat... ???
+1

How much would most startups pay for an established dealer network, demand, proven history.
I don't know how sales have been for the Tattoo. Perhaps the demand isn't there. Seems riskier to build demand for a brand new boat. I guess the dealers are still there and may be willing to risk it.

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Re: Tattoo 26 Production Suspended, factory relocating

Post by RussMT » Wed Jul 22, 2015 3:37 pm

BOAT wrote:An entire mold re-design is in order if an upscale to the 26M is to be successful.
Not total. But a substantial redesign would be a boost.

Upper deck:
Loose the raccoon stripes and make it look more contemporary. Lose the double row of windows.
Hull:
Make the aft quarters sharper and more modern looking. Maybe a better paint job, like stripes. Some Mac owners have done great after market painting.
Cabin:
Loose the sliding galley. Not sure why Roger did this to begin with.
Add a little wood down there. Even fake wood. Some color would go a long way to selling to the Admirals.

Website:
Hire a professional web designer. All the major brands have fantastic websites. This is what you will be judged by after the boat show when people go home and think on it.
Laura's Wordpress site is MILES over Roger's Frontpage 98 website. It looks good. I applaud what she's got there. But take it further. Drop $5-10k on a fantastic web presence. These days a website is how your product will be judged.
Update the blog. This is how you create talk and interest. Laura does have a blog (something Roger apparently knew nothing about). Points there. But if you don't update it (or assign someone to update it) the content gets stale as does the look of your product.
Post on this site. How many of us have bought our boats because of this very forum? Look how great the responses are when Laura posts. PR is important.

I still believe in the proven record of the 26. Roger let the image slip over time. I believe it can be revived. Hunter's biggest problem in my opinion was weight and cost. Can't be towed easily and for that much money, you can buy a used boat with much more. The Mac/Tat for under $50k is still a great deal for a special market. I for one, have zero marina facilities, so I have to bring my boat to the water myself. Then there is the vagabond like Doug W who is taking his boat all over the country.

This boat looks more modern, with old Mac hull.
Image

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