Rudders past limits: Snap! Pop!

A forum for discussion of how to rig and tune your boat or kicker to achieve the best sailing performance.
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delevi
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Post by delevi »

Perhaps I misunderstood what you said to me that day. My bad.
Now with your new Quantum, add some gonzo outhaul and/or vang, plus running-backs, plus mega-rudders ... you should have gone upwind like that Corsair you're wanting!
Absolutely. My upwind problem has been solved. Points great, sails fast, doesn't round up unless I'm not paying attention :P (other than the rudder failing, but hopefully the shorter replacement will do nearly as good of a job.) It will be interesting to see how Roger's rudders will work in comparison. Hopefully I'll get some good wind on Clear Lake this weekend and find out.

My real problem is the broaching on broad reaches. This has been an ongoing problem; very furstrating not to mention a safety concnern. You may be onto something about the mega rudders being part of the problem, however, this happened with Roger's rudders in the past, granted with the old blown out sails. It erks me that the only solution may be sailing a broad reach w/o main (when it's windy w/ waves) I'm hoping that raising the board 3/4 and lowering the engine + shorter rudders may be a solution. I will attempt this w/reefed main before resorting to sailing with just the jib.



on edit
What do you guys think about bringing the main to centerline for conditions described above. I am trying to figure out if it would just deflect most of the wind, thus reducing the lever effect of the mainsail or would it just act like an oversheeted sail and make things worse?

Leon
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Lease
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Post by Lease »

This is just about the best thread I(with the associated broaching thread) that I've seen on this board. Should be required reading for Mac owners.

As far as closing up the AOA by bringing the main to the centreline, that would tend to put more shape in the sail when you require less, would be my input.

The traveller on the M is pretty short, so you don't get a chance to open the angle as much as you probably need. I'd have the thing all the way down with the main reefed and flattenned as much as possible and as much mainsheet as you can handle.
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baldbaby2000
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Post by baldbaby2000 »

Frank you hit on several of my newbie mistakes this weekend but I am really interested how you get 7 1/2 in 20 knots. I could not keep the boat (07M) on a close reach in 15 to 20 knots of wind and keep the rudders in the water
In my own experience 15 to 20 knots wind is the sweet spot for the 26M. More wind and it wants to round up, less and it's just not very fast. Try flattening your sails, move your traveller out and avoid oversheeting. If things are gusty you have to react fast with either the sheet or the traveller.
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Mikebe
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Post by Mikebe »

Well, I am just a rank amature sailor but I have found that the M sails just fine with only the jib in 20 knot winds. Last weekend we had 20 knot winds, and single-handed, I decided to use just the roller-fuller jib, since I'd read several others on this site sail that way. With 20 knot winds, it seemed to me like I got just as much speed out of the jib as I had with jib and main in 10 - 15 knot winds, but without the excessive heeling and stress on the rudders, and of course it was much easier to drop sails if it got too heavy.
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baldbaby2000
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Post by baldbaby2000 »

I'd be surprised if you can point decently using the jib only.
I agree, you really need a mainsail to point.
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Mikebe
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Post by Mikebe »

Point? I can point at my boat just fine from the land I'll be standing on in 20+ knot winds.
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Mikebe
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Post by Mikebe »

This is just about the best thread I(with the associated broaching thread) that I've seen on this board.
Ditto. Especially for newbies like me. Just about everything has come up. Still waiting to hear from Kevin though. He's probably out sailing right now, leaving the rest of us to the more mundane....
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They Theirs
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Post by They Theirs »

Common failure for the 26 classics

Stock 26D rudder and the oversize Ida

Image
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marsanden
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Post by marsanden »

eric3a wrote:The rudder and steering system appear to be the real weak link of our boats.

While my prevalent winds are light, I still want the ability to sail in strong winds, and we shouldn't worry about rudder/steering system.
i agree with you Eric, im afraid about stering system weakness.
but, on the other hand, i think i must follow the mac certifications.

My 2001 x is CE cerificated as a class "C" : it means no more than 22-24 knot wind, waves high less than 2 mt .
For a safety sailing it means, for me, no more than 18-20 knot wind.
Sailing with more wind sounds like lots of risks i want to take.
It is like a stress - test made on my boat.
Any weakness on my rig doesnt mean that the boat is unsafe.

It means im stressing it too much, in accordance with the CE certifications.
kevperro
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Post by kevperro »

marsanden wrote:
eric3a wrote:The rudder and steering system appear to be the real weak link of our boats.

While my prevalent winds are light, I still want the ability to sail in strong winds, and we shouldn't worry about rudder/steering system.
i agree with you Eric, im afraid about stering system weakness.
but, on the other hand, i think i must follow the mac certifications.

My 2001 x is CE cerificated as a class "C" : it means no more than 22-24 knot wind, waves high less than 2 mt .
For a safety sailing it means, for me, no more than 18-20 knot wind.
Sailing with more wind sounds like lots of risks i want to take.
It is like a stress - test made on my boat.
Any weakness on my rig doesnt mean that the boat is unsafe.

It means im stressing it too much, in accordance with the CE certifications.
Oh hull.... I'm not inclined to go out and abuse my boat but if we are limited to 18-20 knot winds we may as well just stay home.

There is some middle-ground somewhere. Its between 40-45 knots and your proposed 18-20 knot limit. Exactly where depends upon your skills, how you maintain and understand your boat and how much tolerance for risk you have.
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baldbaby2000
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Post by baldbaby2000 »

For a safety sailing it means, for me, no more than 18-20 knot wind.
That's getting down to America's Cup boat limits!
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They Theirs
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Post by They Theirs »

eric3a
Interesting comment and picture "Common failure on the 26 classic"!!
Eric
Finally, the aluminum rudder castle itself is an extremely sloppy design. With any force applied to the tiller, the rudder castle tends to flex and twist, making the process of steering the boat feel very tentative. These problems have made a number of original MacGregor 26 owners throw up their hands in disgust and move onto other boats. This was a real shame, because the MacGregor 26 daggerboard model was the fastest sailing boat that MacGregor has ever built (under 65 feet), and it regularly outperforms every other sailboat in its class.

Rudder Replacement

Broke rudder brackets en route.


mhaberski
Junior Member Registered: August 2000
Review Date: Tue December 28, 1999
I bought my M26 new and proceeded to learn the hard way that this boat can be miserable to sail if it is not balanced correctly. On the other hand, this boat sails sweet with a few minor modifications and an understanding of her limitations. I started out on San Francisco Bay - big mistake. The Bay is tough with a larger boat and the MacGregor can get in over it's head pretty easy in winds over 20 knots. The problem with this vintage is that the outboard rudder post can "twist" as you are trying to keep the boat in a straight line. The weather helm becomes extreme and you round up. The solution here is to stiffen the rudder post. You can box it in with sheet metal or install a wood block in open area. While you are at it, bolt through the rudder so the kick up feature is no longer an option. Same deal as before, the kick up wire stretches and you have progessively less rudder in the water. The other really big deal with the M26 is to reduce mainsail early and often. The high ballast does not allow for full main in winds approaching 20 knots. The head sail is different, I routinely sail with a reefed main and a 150 % genoa. No problem, the large headsail keeps the boats nose down. After a while I moved on to lake sailing and really love it! With a couple of modifications these boats are fun and fast. Once you get the feel for the boats rather tender balance point they compete with boats costing 3 times as much. I would buy one again (but maybe not their X boat)

cosmicinsane
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Review Date: Thu March 23, 2006
When I purchased this boat I had never owned a boat, pulled a trailer, or sailed. This is an ideal starter boat if you are interested in sailing. It is easy to trailer and rig. One major shortcoming, however, is the factory rudder. It is very poorly designed, resulting in severe weather helm. The boat becomes overpowered and rounds up way earlier than it should. I replaced the factory rudder with an aftermarket one for 250 dollars, and it is an entirely different boat. Much easier to control at all speeds, and the weather helm is almost non-existant. I am very, very happy with this boat and would definately buy one again. It is not a blue water boat by any means, but someone of my experience shouldn't be attempting major passages anyway. I would recommend this boat to others without hesitation, just as long as you replace the rudder.

tgreen111
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Review Date: Thu March 23, 2006
We loved our swing centerboard Mac 26. The water ballast is a snap and never gave us a minute's trouble or worry about stability. Beachability was a huge plus when sailing with kids. Roomy cockpit and cabin for the boat's size, weight and cost. Affordable and forgiving starter boat with enough speed and sailing ability to keep the experienced sailor interested. Ditto the comments about excessive weather helm and twisting rudder. Usually a reef in the main or dropping it altogether in 15+ mph winds made the boat behave better. We sailed often under 150% genoa alone. Maintenance is minimal, but these boats come pretty bare and are begging to be customized. Stern lazarette is huge and interior storage is generous, although you need to lift up cushions to get at the inside lockers. The queen-sized berth under the cockpit is glorious. Headroom with the pop-top raised greatly adds to liveability although you still have to duckwalk forward to the head and V-berth. The enclosed head is a nice feature and is a great hanging locker for wet stuff as well. The galley is awkward but usable as long as you don't mind sitting next to the stove and sink.

MacGregors usually offer a terrific value. Don't listen to the critics. These boats are lightweight but they are strong where they need to be. They rarely fail and ours handled everything we every asked it to. I found our Mac to be much more trouble-free than bigger boats that sailed the same lakes. We miss our 26 and recently downsized to a smaller boat (a Mac/Venture 17) due to demands of work and family. I'll get another one someday...

Unregistered
Review Date: Tue May 2, 2006
The Mac swing keel 26S has a lot of room for the money. A good coastal boat but not a good small lake boat; where I tend to do most sailing (Alabama). It has a high profile fiberglass front (bow) that tends to "catch the wind" on tacks and jibes. Therfore, you loose a lot of ground on these manuvers. If the wind is up 15+mph- you do much better. But in light winds, it makes a long day accept for your down-wind runs.
This boat is a pain to steer. The standard rudder is not big enough to make course changes- esp. in reverse while docking. It has a wide turning radius, here again, the rudder is not responsive enough for size of boat.
If you get into shallows, and have your rudder tied down- you will snap the steering cable! (and you must tie down the rudder to get any decent responce from the tiller). This leaves you practically helpless untill you go overboard and attach a new cable. (if you buy a boat like this- go promptly and make spare cables.)
Because the outboard is in a "motor well" and not attached to an outside/rear motor mount, using the outboard to "motor home" is almost impossible. The motor well allows for limited turning radius. This can cause much stress on captain and crew as coal barges bare down on you. They can't stop on a dime, and you can't turn enough to get out of their way.
If you can get over it's short fall in agility- it's great! lots of storage room for people and gear.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`

Steering and linkage have been enhanced with each new model…the M included.
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Chip Hindes
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Post by Chip Hindes »

TheyTheirs wrote:Common failure for the 26 classics

Stock 26D rudder and the oversize Ida
(didn't repost the photo)

Not sure what your point is. You're showing an obviously well used, old standard Mac rudder which has failed, compared to a brand new Idasailor which has obviously never been installed.

If that is a recent photo, I should also point out that there is no Mac Classic which is less than twelve years old.

On the four Conch Cruisers trips in which I have participated, there have been three Idasailor rudder failures (two Mac S boats and one Hunter) and zero stock rudder failures.

Based on the number of Idasailor rudders installed on CC boats versus the number of stock rudders, I'd say the Mac record is pretty good and the Idasailor rudder failure rate is spectacularly bad.
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kmclemore
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Post by kmclemore »

I'm with you, Chip. I cannot imagine that somthing made of HDPE could be even remotely as strong as polymer reinforced fiberglass, particularly as the overall thickness is limited by the rudder bracket.
kevperro
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Post by kevperro »

kmclemore wrote:I'm with you, Chip. I cannot imagine that somthing made of HDPE could be even remotely as strong as polymer reinforced fiberglass, particularly as the overall thickness is limited by the rudder bracket.
I'm sure it is not. The HDPE is probably a nod to easier production to get the nice profile. With my total IDA solution (bracket + rudder) they spread some of the pressure over a greater surface area of the rudder so that hopefully, you get fewer failures. With the stock rudder the failures are probably due to aging and rotting from the inside out.

I'd say if your main concern is 100% reliability you would be better off with a stock Mac rudder and replacing it every decade. Of course with the 26Cs you have to deal with rounding up during puffs and fighting the tiller in high wind situations when using the stock rudder. Its a matter of picking your poison. With an X or an M I think I might stick with the stock configuration but with a Classic, I think the rudder upgrade is worth it.
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