Anchors and anchor rollers

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Three Gypsies
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Re: Anchors and anchor rollers

Post by Three Gypsies » Sat Dec 21, 2013 2:41 pm

The Keys are a difficult place to anchor . Somebody poured concrete all over the sea floor ! 8)

We have a West marine 13 lb Danforth style on 30' of chain and 100 ' of rope .

We dragged a few times , but its going to happen . Once was in Crystal River , when I got the anchor up it was a big ball of grass and mud . But it also held in a 50mph wind in Crystal River .
Another was just south of Fort Myers Beach . Never did figure out why we dragged there , but we did several times.

Bahia Honda , as said sea bottom was made of concrete .

I am thinking about adding 8 feet of heavy chain between the regular chain and the rode . thinking this extra weight , there , away from the anchor will help it not get snatched out .

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mastreb
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Re: Anchors and anchor rollers

Post by mastreb » Sat Dec 21, 2013 4:25 pm

My Fortress 11 fits in the locker with the mud palms on, kellett grapnel, 20' of chain and 180' of rode--but just barely and it takes some packing to get it all in there. I can't even get a dockline in there with it and still close the locker hatch. But it works, and I'm convinced its the maximum anchor holding power that could possibly fit in the anchor locker. The other anchor lives in a bucket under the v-berth.

Three Gypsies
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Re: Anchors and anchor rollers

Post by Three Gypsies » Sun Dec 22, 2013 4:43 pm

mastreb wrote:My Fortress 11 fits in the locker with the mud palms on, kellett grapnel, 20' of chain and 180' of rode--but just barely and it takes some packing to get it all in there. I can't even get a dockline in there with it and still close the locker hatch. But it works, and I'm convinced its the maximum anchor holding power that could possibly fit in the anchor locker. The other anchor lives in a bucket under the v-berth.

OLD CHINESE PROVERB
If the anchor fits in the MacGregor anchor locker , then its to small ! :)

I have the chain and rode for both bow anchors in the locker , but the main anchor is on the anchor roller and the aux anchor hangs on the bow rail .

A funny thing happened in Sea hag marina , Steinhatchee River , last summer during tropical storm Andrea .
Everybody knew the storm was coming . I tied the Gypsy every which way I could , so we were securely asleep in the bow that morning when suddenly the Gypsy lurches over on her side .
An idiot with more horsepower than IQ points decided , during the worst part of the storm , to put his 40 foot center console with three 375 hp outboards on back on its trailer . On his way out of his slip , He hooks my anchor , which is sticking out from the roller , in the side of his boat . It drags down his side , destroying all of his graphics , then rips his outboard engine cover off . It nearly capsized us in the process . Had we not been tied as tightly it probably would have .
Our anchor roller had to be replaced , which He paid for .

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Seapup
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Re: Anchors and anchor rollers

Post by Seapup » Sun Dec 22, 2013 7:11 pm

The Keys are a difficult place to anchor . Somebody poured concrete all over the sea floor ! 8)
I have read of some people sharpening the flukes and tips on the steel danforth anchors with an angle grinder. Supposedly cuts grass instead of balling it up and cuts into hard bottoms.

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Ixneigh
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Re: Anchors and anchor rollers

Post by Ixneigh » Mon Dec 23, 2013 7:43 am

Haha like the mac proverb...
the delta anchor works well in the keys. I also have an fx 11 but rarely use it. While cruising I don't often use a Bahamian moor. Another proverb: if on one anchor,your mac might swing too close to someone, you're anchoring too close anyway.
I have not tried the grapnel kellet but found it interesting.
I prefer the old style high tensile Danforth to the aluminum anchors. The aluminum anchors seem to corrode around the Ss bolts.
Ix

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Re: Anchors and anchor rollers

Post by Boblee » Mon Dec 23, 2013 7:59 pm

Ixneigh wrote:Haha like the mac proverb...
the delta anchor works well in the keys. I also have an fx 11 but rarely use it. While cruising I don't often use a Bahamian moor. Another proverb: if on one anchor,your mac might swing too close to someone, you're anchoring too close anyway.
I have not tried the grapnel kellet but found it interesting.
I prefer the old style high tensile Danforth to the aluminum anchors. The aluminum anchors seem to corrode around the Ss bolts.
Ix
Sometimes you need the extra anchor in a narrow stream especially at low tide or when a wind comes up, this year we actually went back to a river I had anchored the Mac in previously and it's got me beat how we didn't come to grief as it was hardly wide enough to anchor the dinghy in without scraping trees etc especially as it was a 7m tide and the sounder said we only had a metre under us.
As for when anchoring near other boats we keep well clear even with two anchors but with one and it drags for any reason it could get messy.
I have read of some people sharpening the flukes and tips on the steel danforth anchors with an angle grinder. Supposedly cuts grass instead of balling it up and cuts into hard bottoms
I have done that on both the Rocna and the Sarca for hard clay bottoms and weeds but it didn't help on the Sarca when it hit a large piece of plastic which caused us to drift almost a kilometre before holding enough to stop us until I woke, a good lesson (for me), set both anchors even if bone tired.

Three Gypsies
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Re: Anchors and anchor rollers

Post by Three Gypsies » Tue Dec 24, 2013 1:08 pm

One night we anchored on the Gulf side of Bahia Honda , I say anchor , I dived down , found an underwater bush that I couldn't pull up and wrapped the anchor rode around it .
The ground was so hard , I couldn't get the Danforth to dig in , no kind of way .

We were lucky it was a calm night and we had no problem staying put .

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Dimitri-2000X-Tampa
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Re: Anchors and anchor rollers

Post by Dimitri-2000X-Tampa » Thu Jan 02, 2014 8:00 pm

Seapup wrote:
The Keys are a difficult place to anchor . Somebody poured concrete all over the sea floor ! 8)
I have read of some people sharpening the flukes and tips on the steel danforth anchors with an angle grinder. Supposedly cuts grass instead of balling it up and cuts into hard bottoms.
Anybody here ever done this? I'm thinking about sharpening the tips on my Aluminum G-11 due to all the problems I had anchoring in the Keys last weekend. It seems like the flukes themselves would be pretty hard to sharpen as they are pretty squared off. I have to figure out which dremel bit would work best for aluminum too.

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DaveB
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Re: Anchors and anchor rollers

Post by DaveB » Thu Jan 02, 2014 9:36 pm

Dimitri,
As you know I had no problem holding the 3 MacX's on a rafting in the Cove Friday night. And no other problem anchoring thru out the trip except on Tuesday when I anchored in Manitee Bay in 25 knots of wind gusting to ? white foam covered the bay. I dragged close to were the Short Key cut is and tried two other times on my 14 lb Danforth with 30 ft. of chain. Got out my Fortress 11 with 30 ft. Chain and no dragging. In morning I pulled the Fortress and slack line all the way. The original Danforth did grab after all. I think the fortress slowed the boat so the main anchor could dig in.
Anchoring in strong winds require slow release and have engine in forward to set the anchor, once set snug up.
I can't stress enough on how one needs min. 30 ft. of chain for good hold on a fluke or other anchors.
Dave

Dimitri-2000X-Tampa wrote:
Seapup wrote:
The Keys are a difficult place to anchor . Somebody poured concrete all over the sea floor ! 8)
I have read of some people sharpening the flukes and tips on the steel danforth anchors with an angle grinder. Supposedly cuts grass instead of balling it up and cuts into hard bottoms.
Anybody here ever done this? I'm thinking about sharpening the tips on my Aluminum G-11 due to all the problems I had anchoring in the Keys last weekend. It seems like the flukes themselves would be pretty hard to sharpen as they are pretty squared off. I have to figure out which dremel bit would work best for aluminum too.

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Dimitri-2000X-Tampa
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Re: Anchors and anchor rollers

Post by Dimitri-2000X-Tampa » Fri Jan 03, 2014 5:00 pm

Dave, I agree than once a Danforth is set properly, it has great holding power. But what is the difference between your Fortress and your Danforth? I thought these were the same designs? With my 10 feet of 1/4 inch chain, I've never had issues before this trip and certainly a longer chain couldn't hurt but I had other problems in the Keys other than the chain...afterall, some of these guys had much shorter chains than what I have. First, my Aluminum Danforth is much lighter than a steel one and this presents even more problems setting in grass since the flukes aren't heavy enough to cut through the grass despite the angle of pull. So today, i took a dremel to the points and sharpened them. This is bound to help a bit but still won't cut grass so if it doesn't go down under the grass right away, it is not likely to set. The point you made about speed of setting is certainly relevent too (and even more relevent with the light anchor) and I think having a helper along made it worse...ie, my daugher would cleat it off and then I would back down the anchor right away..as opposed to when I am by myself and I cleat it off and it takes me a while to get back to the helm to back it..during this time, it probably starts digging in slowly. Like you said, you had problems in the high wind probably because you are making the anchor skate across the bottom too fast...and of course, if it picks up any grass or weeds, thats it.

And what also accomplishes the same goal as more chain is attaching the anchor at the bow hoop which is much lower than the deck cleats, this would also lower the angle. There is some sort of Gadget that I saw Randy using which probably makes that easier to do.

But I have been thinking I need a different type anchor anyway, other than the danforth. Afterall, danforths are known to release if you do a sharp 180 and not reset. They work great in soft sand and mud but it is well known that they have problems with hard bottoms and grass. So having both a Danforth and a plow is the right approach and installing a bow roller is a great mod from what everyone says. So, its definitely on my project list. I want to keep the Guardian in the anchor locker like it is now, maybe enough room for the chain of the plow too and then a rope bag attached to the pulpit or something for the rode. I can use the Danforth as a secondary anchor after that.

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Re: Anchors and anchor rollers

Post by DaveB » Fri Jan 03, 2014 6:33 pm

Dimitri,
I had the chance to see you anchor several times. You put the boat in fast reverse once the anchor hits the ground. This will cause the Guardian or any other Danforth type anchor to drag before digging in, this is to late and the anchor will pick up enough sea grass so it doesn't set.
Best to lower the anchor and slowly let it get a bite. The one who sets it should give tugs on the line to make sure it is set and not dragging.
Once set than go reverse and slowly set it deeply with higher rpms to 1500 rpms. If boat doesn't drag. you are good for a blow.
Delta, Claw type anchor is good for grassy areas.
30 ft. of chain puts the anchor shaft down so the anchor has a chance to dig in and also acts as a shock cord.
Lot of reading on anchors are in Practical Sailors Mag. on testing, also Boat US.
Fortress 11 weighs about 7 lbs and has much larger flukes than a Danforth 13 pds. So adding 6 lbs of 1/4 inch proof coil chain at 20 ft more in length than your 10 ft. of chain equals same weight but much more holding power.
Until I can mount my Fortress 11 on my yet to be installed Bow Roller, and will always be on the roller, I will still use the Danforth that fits in the locker.
Most of the time we anchor in 5 ft. of water with 30 ft. of chain and 20 ft. of rope.(that's 6-1 scope adding 3ft. for bow ht.) This has always held us in winds below 20 knts, more wind, more scope.
I had 60 ft. of chain and rope when the 4 boats rafted up on Thursday cove with my Danforth 14lb. Took 15 min. to try to brake out the anchor next morning under power.
Retirement end of Jan. were all stuff gets done.
Dave
Dimitri-2000X-Tampa wrote:Dave, I agree than once a Danforth is set properly, it has great holding power. But what is the difference between your Fortress and your Danforth? I thought these were the same designs? With my 10 feet of 1/4 inch chain, I've never had issues before this trip and certainly a longer chain couldn't hurt but I had other problems in the Keys other than the chain...afterall, some of these guys had much shorter chains than what I have. First, my Aluminum Danforth is much lighter than a steel one and this presents even more problems setting in grass since the flukes aren't heavy enough to cut through the grass despite the angle of pull. So today, i took a dremel to the points and sharpened them. This is bound to help a bit but still won't cut grass so if it doesn't go down under the grass right away, it is not likely to set. The point you made about speed of setting is certainly relevent too (and even more relevent with the light anchor) and I think having a helper along made it worse...ie, my daugher would cleat it off and then I would back down the anchor right away..as opposed to when I am by myself and I cleat it off and it takes me a while to get back to the helm to back it..during this time, it probably starts digging in slowly. Like you said, you had problems in the high wind probably because you are making the anchor skate across the bottom too fast...and of course, if it picks up any grass or weeds, thats it.

And what also accomplishes the same goal as more chain is attaching the anchor at the bow hoop which is much lower than the deck cleats, this would also lower the angle. There is some sort of Gadget that I saw Randy using which probably makes that easier to do.

But I have been thinking I need a different type anchor anyway, other than the danforth. Afterall, danforths are known to release if you do a sharp 180 and not reset. They work great in soft sand and mud but it is well known that they have problems with hard bottoms and grass. So having both a Danforth and a plow is the right approach and installing a bow roller is a great mod from what everyone says. So, its definitely on my project list. I want to keep the Guardian in the anchor locker like it is now, maybe enough room for the chain of the plow too and then a rope bag attached to the pulpit or something for the rode. I can use the Danforth as a secondary anchor after that.

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Dimitri-2000X-Tampa
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Re: Anchors and anchor rollers

Post by Dimitri-2000X-Tampa » Sat Jan 04, 2014 10:32 am

Dave, I think you jinxed me because in a post you made a few weeks ago, you said what a great job I always did anchoring single handed at Cayo Costa :D

Seriously, I will try some changes in my technique next time I have trouble setting the anchor. I think when I do it by myself with just the boat drag, I do tend to (sub consciously) momentarily snub the line with my hand to put slower pressure on the anchor for the initial dig in. But I didn't think of this at the right time while my daughter was cleating it off and I was at the helm. Also, I like to reverse up to 2-3K RPM when I set.

Also, to be clear here, I'm not talking about the weight of the anchor with relation to the chain which holds the rode down lower for a better angle, I'm talking about the weight of the anchor itself, and quite specifically, the fluke weight which is very light on an Aluminum anchor. As you know, the flukes are hinged so even if you are pulling completely horizontally on the anchor shaft, the flukes themselves have to drop down in order to start digging. The lighter weight of the aluminum flukes compared to steel will make this less effective on anything but soft bottoms. But it sure does lessen the retrieval weight...ie, I had always thought it was better to have the weight in the chain instead of the anchor but this recent experience shows otherwise.
DaveB wrote:Dimitri,
I had the chance to see you anchor several times. You put the boat in fast reverse once the anchor hits the ground. This will cause the Guardian or any other Danforth type anchor to drag before digging in, this is to late and the anchor will pick up enough sea grass so it doesn't set.
Best to lower the anchor and slowly let it get a bite. The one who sets it should give tugs on the line to make sure it is set and not dragging.
Once set than go reverse and slowly set it deeply with higher rpms to 1500 rpms. If boat doesn't drag. you are good for a blow.
Delta, Claw type anchor is good for grassy areas.
30 ft. of chain puts the anchor shaft down so the anchor has a chance to dig in and also acts as a shock cord.
Lot of reading on anchors are in Practical Sailors Mag. on testing, also Boat US.
Fortress 11 weighs about 7 lbs and has much larger flukes than a Danforth 13 pds. So adding 6 lbs of 1/4 inch proof coil chain at 20 ft more in length than your 10 ft. of chain equals same weight but much more holding power.
Until I can mount my Fortress 11 on my yet to be installed Bow Roller, and will always be on the roller, I will still use the Danforth that fits in the locker.
Most of the time we anchor in 5 ft. of water with 30 ft. of chain and 20 ft. of rope.(that's 6-1 scope adding 3ft. for bow ht.) This has always held us in winds below 20 knts, more wind, more scope.
I had 60 ft. of chain and rope when the 4 boats rafted up on Thursday cove with my Danforth 14lb. Took 15 min. to try to brake out the anchor next morning under power.
Retirement end of Jan. were all stuff gets done.
Dave

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capncarp
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Re: Anchors and anchor rollers

Post by capncarp » Sat Jan 04, 2014 1:48 pm

There is not one correct answer for this question. One thing for sure however is don't buy your anchor based on length. The X is a very, very light boat. I use a 8 and 13# Fortress and have never dragged it. But, I am in a low to medium current area with generally sand or mud bottoms.

capncarp,
99 :macx:

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DaveB
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Re: Anchors and anchor rollers

Post by DaveB » Sat Jan 04, 2014 4:32 pm

Not a Jinxed, Cayo Costa at the Sand Spit has excellent holding ground on almost any type anchor. Just in grassy hard bottom one needs to let it down slowly...snug by pulling on the anchor rode quick jerks to set it by hand and than power aft. to set it deep.
You may be better off with a Delta plow type anchor fixed on a bow roller. Best is have both.
Dave

Dimitri-2000X-Tampa wrote:Dave, I think you jinxed me because in a post you made a few weeks ago, you said what a great job I always did anchoring single handed at Cayo Costa :D

Seriously, I will try some changes in my technique next time I have trouble setting the anchor. I think when I do it by myself with just the boat drag, I do tend to (sub consciously) momentarily snub the line with my hand to put slower pressure on the anchor for the initial dig in. But I didn't think of this at the right time while my daughter was cleating it off and I was at the helm. Also, I like to reverse up to 2-3K RPM when I set.

Also, to be clear here, I'm not talking about the weight of the anchor with relation to the chain which holds the rode down lower for a better angle, I'm talking about the weight of the anchor itself, and quite specifically, the fluke weight which is very light on an Aluminum anchor. As you know, the flukes are hinged so even if you are pulling completely horizontally on the anchor shaft, the flukes themselves have to drop down in order to start digging. The lighter weight of the aluminum flukes compared to steel will make this less effective on anything but soft bottoms. But it sure does lessen the retrieval weight...ie, I had always thought it was better to have the weight in the chain instead of the anchor but this recent experience shows otherwise.
DaveB wrote:Dimitri,
I had the chance to see you anchor several times. You put the boat in fast reverse once the anchor hits the ground. This will cause the Guardian or any other Danforth type anchor to drag before digging in, this is to late and the anchor will pick up enough sea grass so it doesn't set.
Best to lower the anchor and slowly let it get a bite. The one who sets it should give tugs on the line to make sure it is set and not dragging.
Once set than go reverse and slowly set it deeply with higher rpms to 1500 rpms. If boat doesn't drag. you are good for a blow.
Delta, Claw type anchor is good for grassy areas.
30 ft. of chain puts the anchor shaft down so the anchor has a chance to dig in and also acts as a shock cord.
Lot of reading on anchors are in Practical Sailors Mag. on testing, also Boat US.
Fortress 11 weighs about 7 lbs and has much larger flukes than a Danforth 13 pds. So adding 6 lbs of 1/4 inch proof coil chain at 20 ft more in length than your 10 ft. of chain equals same weight but much more holding power.
Until I can mount my Fortress 11 on my yet to be installed Bow Roller, and will always be on the roller, I will still use the Danforth that fits in the locker.
Most of the time we anchor in 5 ft. of water with 30 ft. of chain and 20 ft. of rope.(that's 6-1 scope adding 3ft. for bow ht.) This has always held us in winds below 20 knts, more wind, more scope.
I had 60 ft. of chain and rope when the 4 boats rafted up on Thursday cove with my Danforth 14lb. Took 15 min. to try to brake out the anchor next morning under power.
Retirement end of Jan. were all stuff gets done.
Dave

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