Is this the boat for me?

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Noboatnow
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Re: Is this the boat for me?

Post by Noboatnow » Wed Feb 21, 2018 12:44 pm

Bilgemaster wrote:Three pages in and with no clue to be found in his profile, I'm still wondering where "noboatnow" hails from, and just where exactly he'll be learning the ropes before setting off down the ICW to the Bahamas or Timbuktoo or wherever. I assume he's somewhere on or near the Eastern Seaboard, since he mentions the ICW, but where will he be sailing first? I also have no idea what his budget may be--only that the combined equivalent of a year's tuition and lodging at Harvard is probably a bit on the high side.

I'm not much further up the learning curve than he is, but it still seems to me that his locality and its prevalent conditions might help determine the most sensible choice of boat. Will he be gunkholing around the shallow shoally Chesapeake Bay and its tributaries like me? Well then a 26X with its swing keel might be well advised. Will he be coastal sailing, like banging around Long Island Sound, out along Cape Cod or other more "blue watery" locales? Well then maybe a typically more expensive 26M with its stiffer fixed keel and additional ballast weight might be a kinder ride. Then again, a particularly well-found older non-hybrid 26S (swing keel) or 26D (dagger board) with some sort of little kicker motor might be a way to just get out there on a really tight budget (though great care should be taken in what is allowed to follow you home, since all those "little things" needed to get such a now 20+ year old "Classic Mac" safely up to snuff can add up very quickly). Still, unless you're going to dangle a really hefty "iron wind" off that stern, I think half of the real purpose and potential of a 26X or 26M is just wasted. Tear-assing around and annoying traditional "Sailor Bob" types with our unseemly velocity is almost our God-given duty as mutant hybrids.

So, "noboatnow" please now do yourself and us a favor and answer as best you can the following germane and crucial questions:
  • Where do you primarily plan to sail this season and next?

    What do you have to spend on both the boat and trailer and their inevitable fixin' up & toys without selling a kidney?

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Ponaldpe
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Re: Is this the boat for me?

Post by Ponaldpe » Wed Feb 21, 2018 3:00 pm

How much do they pay for a kidney? Just asking.

Noboatnow
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Re: Is this the boat for me?

Post by Noboatnow » Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:36 pm

"Three pages in and with no clue to be found in his profile, I'm still wondering where "noboatnow" hails from, and just where exactly he'll be learning the ropes before setting off down the ICW to the Bahamas or Timbuktoo or wherever. I assume he's somewhere on or near the Eastern Seaboard, since he mentions the ICW, but where will he be sailing first? I also have no idea what his budget may be--only that the combined equivalent of a year's tuition and lodging at Harvard is probably a bit on the high side."


I'm here!
Sorry no trying to hide. Just jumped on here and didn't think of making a profile. Thank you for your patience.

I live in land locked PA. I'm very close to Moraine State Park. The lake there, lake Arthur, is a little over 3,000 acres and is mostly a sailing lake with power boats limited to 9.9 HP. This is where I took the US Sailing 101 a few years back. They have a nice sailing club there that I plan to join and they have regular races there.

I'm also about 3 hours from Lake Erie. I only took my Snark on it once. I used the line from Jaws. "I need a bigger boat"

This is why a trailer sailer is my plan. There are a lot for sale near Lake Arthur, but most are small day sailers, the occasional sun fish, and a few Flying Scotts.

As for a budget?

The best way I can answer this is that I could go out and buy a new boat and outfit it, but I don't live like that which is why I could afford to do it. I'm cheap! I'm hoping this boat will be a stepping stone for me. I actually want to work on it. Don't worry though, I'm not so cheap that I would skimp on safety!


"I'm not much further up the learning curve than he is, but it still seems to me that his locality and its prevalent conditions might help determine the most sensible choice of boat. Will he be gunkholing around the shallow shoally Chesapeake Bay and its tributaries like me? Well then a 26X with its swing keel might be well advised. Will he be coastal sailing, like banging around Long Island Sound, out along Cape Cod or other more "blue watery" locales? Well then maybe a typically more expensive 26M with its stiffer fixed keel and additional ballast weight might be a kinder ride. Then again, a particularly well-found older non-hybrid 26S (swing keel) or 26D (dagger board) with some sort of little kicker motor might be a way to just get out there on a really tight budget (though great care should be taken in what is allowed to follow you home, since all those "little things" needed to get such a now 20+ year old "Classic Mac" safely up to snuff can add up very quickly). Still, unless you're going to dangle a really hefty "iron wind" off that stern, I think half of the real purpose and potential of a 26X or 26M is just wasted. Tear-assing around and annoying traditional "Sailor Bob" types with our unseemly velocity is almost our God-given duty as mutant hybrids."

"So, "noboatnow" please now do yourself and us a favor and answer as best you can the following germane and crucial questions:

Where do you primarily plan to sail this season and next?

What do you have to spend on both the boat and trailer and their inevitable fixin' up & toys without selling a kidney?"

So I really appreciate your reply and hope I gave you some info to go on.
Also, the 26S has been mentioned before and I'm working on learning about them. Honestly the cabin space is what had me looking at the 26M more than anything. The S might actually be a better boat for my intended purpose.

I can also really appreciate the comment about "be careful what follows you home"! It has taken me years to get smarter about that one! As a former technician, current machinist, with welding and fabricating skills, I can usually fix it. The trick is that just because you can, doesn't mean you should!

I'd go for something that has been lacking love, but not a basket case!
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Bilgemaster
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Herschel
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Re: Is this the boat for me?

Post by Herschel » Wed Feb 21, 2018 8:27 pm

I only took my Snark on it once.
Just a couple of thoughts, if you are moving up from a Snark. I have had and sailed one (Snark that is) and have had my 26X for almost 15 years. I got my Snark just a couple of years ago and fixed it up for two of my granddaughters to learn sailing. When I got my 26X, I was moving up from Hobies (18 Magnum and Wave). I found the 26X to be a huge new learning curve. For a change, it was not just sailing anymore. There was the outboard, its controls, and fuel systems; there was the interior plumbing and freshwater tanks, pumps, and lines; There was the 12 volt battery, switches, fuses, lights, instrument panel, running lights, anchor light/steaming light; mast raising system; the VHF radio, chart plotter; then there was the head, holding tank, and macerator; finally, the fiberglass repairs and maintenance; and lastly, the trailer; in my case a double axle one with surge drum brakes to keep functioning. I have, also, dealt with bottom paint since I keep it in the water most of the time. My point is that I could not have done what I did over these years without the help of good marine techs who have done most of the heavy lifting, but have also taught me about my systems. I have learned to repair many of the systems, as well. Having some money to spend when needed was vital to me. If I hadn't had the support of my wife in the money we spent on this boat, it would not have been fun, nor would it have been reliable and safe. I don't want to discourage you--just the opposite. I think you should get on with the boat of your dreams, but do it with open eyes and realistic plans. These boats are way more boat than a Snark. Way more. :)

Noboatnow
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Re: Is this the boat for me?

Post by Noboatnow » Wed Feb 21, 2018 8:55 pm

Herschel wrote:
I only took my Snark on it once.
Just a couple of thoughts, if you are moving up from a Snark. I have had and sailed one (Snark that is) and have had my 26X for almost 15 years. I got my Snark just a couple of years ago and fixed it up for two of my granddaughters to learn sailing. When I got my 26X, I was moving up from Hobies (18 Magnum and Wave). I found the 26X to be a huge new learning curve. For a change, it was not just sailing anymore. There was the outboard, its controls, and fuel systems; there was the interior plumbing and freshwater tanks, pumps, and lines; There was the 12 volt battery, switches, fuses, lights, instrument panel, running lights, anchor light/steaming light; mast raising system; the VHF radio, chart plotter; then there was the head, holding tank, and macerator; finally, the fiberglass repairs and maintenance; and lastly, the trailer; in my case a double axle one with surge drum brakes to keep functioning. I have, also, dealt with bottom paint since I keep it in the water most of the time. My point is that I could not have done what I did over these years without the help of good marine techs who have done most of the heavy lifting, but have also taught me about my systems. I have learned to repair many of the systems, as well. Having some money to spend when needed was vital to me. If I hadn't had the support of my wife in the money we spent on this boat, it would not have been fun, nor would it have been reliable and safe. I don't want to discourage you--just the opposite. I think you should get on with the boat of your dreams, but do it with open eyes and realistic plans. These boats are way more boat than a Snark. Way more. :)
I can appreciate that! Yes a Mac would be my first real sailboat, but not real boat. I've owned a few power boats and have been the maintenance and repair guy for my friends boats and families boats.

That part, I'm not at all worried about.

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NiceAft
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Re: Is this the boat for me?

Post by NiceAft » Wed Feb 21, 2018 10:06 pm

I went from a 14' Phantom sailboat (think Sunfish), to a 26' :macm: . Was there a learning curve, yes. Was it difficult, no.

I told you way back on page one to list where you are. I also recommended taking a course. I sailed that Phantom for 26 years before getting my Mac. I recommended you to take a course, because I took a course. It's important.

The opinions here can, and will go on ad infinitum, and that's good for learning about what you don't know. Some of it good. Some of it off on a tangent. At some time you have to make a decision. For me, the :macm: was a great decision. I bought it brand new because I could. I have never regretted it. You don't have that choice.

I told you on page one to get on an :macm: , get on an :macx: , see what you like, and make a decision.

Don't worry about daggerboard vs swingkeel. There are so many pro's and con's involved, that those two boards are insignificant compared to your other boards, the rudders. If you loose a daggerboard/swingkeel, you can still sail. You will sail poorly, but you can sail. If you loose rudders, you can only motor.

After youv'e read all of the opinions, including mine, you will have to make a decision. You will be able to do it confidently. Just remember to let us know what you finally purchased, and send pictures.

Ray

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Ixneigh
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Re: Is this the boat for me?

Post by Ixneigh » Thu Feb 22, 2018 8:33 am

You must sail it. I would never have bought one without doing that. I financed mine new and love it. Its my 2nd home. In fact I'm on the boat now.
But I was honest in how I use the boat. I have the skills to make her a bit better for my own use. Most of the things I've done and want to do, a lake sailor will just not need nor want.
I would say the main reason to consider a mac is space, (x m) light trailer weight and sailing performance (s d) and low purchase price (older mac 25 venture)
There are (much) better trailer boat options out There otherwise. (They tend to be "trailer capable" coastal cruisers. Heavier. More draft)
Ill I wanted was space and low draft but as boatyards go out of business or raise rates, storing it in my yard is a huge benefit.
Ix

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Seapup
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Re: Is this the boat for me?

Post by Seapup » Thu Feb 22, 2018 1:36 pm

I live in land locked PA. I'm very close to Moraine State Park. The lake there, lake Arthur, is a little over 3,000 acres and is mostly a sailing lake with power boats limited to 9.9 HP. This is where I took the US Sailing 101 a few years back. They have a nice sailing club there that I plan to join and they have regular races there.
I grew up in Lawrence county and play disc golf at Moraine when I go home in the summers. It always amazes me the amount of sailboats there vs the size of the lake. Do they enforce the outboard horsepower limit?

whgoffrn
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Re: Is this the boat for me?

Post by whgoffrn » Thu Feb 22, 2018 10:24 pm

Living in PA will still give you the training wheels needed for the icw..... I bought my boat a few years back off a guy on this board...he lived 1000 miles away from me so even after I financed it and seller got his check I couldn't pick it up for a month.... during that months I watched approx 2 hours of ...youtube videos (lol) id never even seen a sailboat in person only on tv and in magazines .... I put it in the water and slept on it in the water on the 1000 mile drive back to see if I could float a sailboat (no sails up) lol without sinking it ...following week was memorial day and went to wv biggest and busiest lake to learn to sail.... it took me 8 hours to figure out how to put the mast up and rig it all but I was sailing like a pro (or so I thought within 15 mins of the main being up ..... even had a few boats come up and ask me how many years I had been sailing ....boat traffic was everywhere and I was doing figure 8s around jetskis and other boats ....it was a piece of cake
2 weeks later I moved to Florida and splashed it in the Indian river off cocoa beach..... was what I did dangerous ??? I dunno it sounds haphazzard by the sounds of it but I had owned power boats my whole life and to me it was nothing more than a power boat with this thing called a sail that I needed to figure out...... to be a seasoned and safe captain one must have experience but one gets experience by making bad judgement ..... the trick is to not go overboard and make huge mistakes by not giving the weather water and boat the respect it's due .... go drag an anchor , realize weather creeps up on you faster than you thought , drain your battery .... while I guess a sailing class would help some if you've already sailed a snark you obviously have the basics down and in my opinion there's no other way to learn to sail a macgregor than sail a macgregor .... heaving to in a j34 isn't gonna help you figure out how to get your mainsail down when it's jammed against the spreaders and you're stuck goimg downwind in 25kts of wind and dont know what to do
.... sailing in semi smaller lakes will give you that experience with training wheels .... using the above example in a lake you can turn away from the wind to get the sail down .....can you do that out in open ocean with big following waves or in the icw which is shallow out of the channel? Biggest disadvantage of lakes up north is islands may not be soft sand like icw..... one of the worst nights I was sweating my poor decisions and lessons in learning was on a lake in Kentucky giving the weather in ky no respect because I had weathered many Florida squalls...i anchored right up beside a rocky cliff and a storm rolled through with winds 40 to 50 mph for about 5 hours of course in the middle of the night and no way I could reanchor because if I would have pulled the anchor the boat would be in the rocks before I could get the anchor up..... got zero sleep that night and left motor idling all night incase it broke loose....so while I do believe lake sailing up north has less dangers involved it can get dangerous also but at least you don't have alligators and sharks to contend with if you sink it...... ps if you are in the icw on thanksgiving don't throw the turkey overboard..... have a video of a nice 12 foot gator that came up behind our boat this last thanksgiving ....another lesson learned

Video of gator https://vimeo.com/244269344

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Bilgemaster
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Re: Is this the boat for me?

Post by Bilgemaster » Fri Feb 23, 2018 12:38 am

Noboatnow wrote:[...snip!]

I live in land locked PA. I'm very close to Moraine State Park. The lake there, lake Arthur, is a little over 3,000 acres and is mostly a sailing lake with power boats limited to 9.9 HP. This is where I took the US Sailing 101 a few years back. They have a nice sailing club there that I plan to join and they have regular races there.

I'm also about 3 hours from Lake Erie. I only took my Snark on it once. I used the line from Jaws. "I need a bigger boat"

This is why a trailer sailer is my plan. There are a lot for sale near Lake Arthur, but most are small day sailers, the occasional sun fish, and a few Flying Scotts.

As for a budget?

The best way I can answer this is that I could go out and buy a new boat and outfit it, but I don't live like that which is why I could afford to do it. I'm cheap! I'm hoping this boat will be a stepping stone for me. I actually want to work on it. Don't worry though, I'm not so cheap that I would skimp on safety!

[snip...!]
Judging from this swell online depth map of Moraine State Park's Lake Arthur and factoring in the fact that engines only up to 20 hp are permitted on the lake (and not 9.9 as you say, according to the "Boating" section of the park's website), it looks to me like a nice old "Classic Mac" 26S with a perky little 9.9 hp kicker on it would be a perfectly suitable boat for your purposes, and which might also serve you quite well for those occasional forays north to Lake Erie. For now I'd pass on the pricier power-sailing hybrid 26X or 26M models, 'cause their typically bigger engines will only keep you off that lovely lake or force you into "deballimg" the beast with some silly little putt-putt...kinda like putting doilies on the dash of a '67 GTO. Sure, you could do that. You could maybe also swap out that big V8 for the same engine that powers the Tickle Me Elmo doll.

The good news is that the Mac 26S is a fine easily-trailerable sailor, and even earns grudging praise as such from folks who normally waste no opportunity to deride the later "hybrids." They can also typically be had for far less than the later ones. You'll really want to give the trailer a thorough going-over though, especially if it's the original. Still, it sounds to me like you could handle that handily.

If you'd like to watch the original Macgregor promo film for the 26S with audio that oddly sounds like it may have been transmitted from one of the moons of Neptune, you can find it at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFP3QA9-5GI.

Happy Hunting!

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NiceAft
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Re: Is this the boat for me?

Post by NiceAft » Fri Feb 23, 2018 7:42 am

I could not possibly disagree more with the advise in this statement;
while I guess a sailing class would help some if you've already sailed a snark you obviously have the basics down and in my opinion there's no other way to learn to sail a macgregor than sail a macgregor ..
.

Sailing is so much more than knowing the mechanics of raising the mast and sailing away; and boat ownership has so many more responsibilities than knowing how to start an engine and doing figure eights.

There is safety in learning the rules to being on the water, before you get on the water. There is benefit in knowing what is the proper thing to do in certain situations before you get into those situations, because things do go wrong, and that is not the time for figuring out what is the smart thing to do. To quote Thomas Gray;“Where ignorance is bliss, ‘tis folly to be wise.”

Just to be clear, this is not an attack against the person who was quoted, but rather against the concept of such advise.

There are many people who read this site, members and non members, boat owners, and wanna be’s. I believe it is irresponsible to acquire a boat, and just go merrily on your way. Would you do that with an automobile? Many states now require that you take a course on boating if you take the helm of a craft. Lives can depend on it.

Ray

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Bilgemaster
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Re: Is this the boat for me?

Post by Bilgemaster » Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:00 am

NiceAft wrote:I could not possibly disagree more with the advise in this statement;
while I guess a sailing class would help some if you've already sailed a snark you obviously have the basics down and in my opinion there's no other way to learn to sail a macgregor than sail a macgregor ..
.

Sailing is so much more than knowing the mechanics of raising the mast and sailing away; and boat ownership has so many more responsibilities than knowing how to start an engine and doing figure eights.

There is safety in learning the rules to being on the water, before you get on the water. There is benefit in knowing what is the proper thing to do in certain situations before you get into those situations, because things do go wrong, and that is not the time for figuring out what is the smart thing to do. To quote Thomas Gray;“Where ignorance is bliss, ‘tis folly to be wise.”

Just to be clear, this is not an attack against the person who was quoted, but rather against the concept of such advise.

There are many people who read this site, members and non members, boat owners, and wanna be’s. I believe it is irresponsible to acquire a boat, and just go merrily on your way. Would you do that with an automobile? Many states now require that you take a course on boating if you take the helm of a craft. Lives can depend on it.

Ray
Fortunately for our man "Noboatnow" there are at least two sailing clubs on that Lake Arthur nearby offering sail training and fellowship. I have taken some lessons on my own 26X at my own Virginia state park's sailing school, and they have been invaluable. Frankly, I intend to continue with the ASA program they offer in earnest this coming season.

If he has already not done so, "Noboatnow" can even commence his training and get his Pennsylvania Boating License online right here. Sadly, Pennsylvania is one of the few states that does not recognize the Boat U.S. Foundation's freebie boating safety courses. Still, there's no reason one couldn't do it anyhow...Couldn't hurt.

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NiceAft
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Re: Is this the boat for me?

Post by NiceAft » Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:08 am

I believe Noboatnow has stated that he/she will take a course. I posted because my opinion is that taking a course is extremely important.

Ray

whgoffrn
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Re: Is this the boat for me?

Post by whgoffrn » Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:34 am

Right no offense taken I assumed that the OP had previous boating experience to know the right of ways basic navigation and rules and reg on lighting pfd proper safety equipment to state regs .... and everyone learns different some people learn better if shown hands on where maybe I can read a book on sailing and gather the same info..... I also am a strong swimmer and when I was first on the water and learning to sail I thought ...no sharks no gators and i can swim and have a pfd on.... and the lake I learned on I could swim across and was in 1 to 2 kts of wind so while it sounds hap hazard keep in mind even McGregor says a person can learn to sail on without formal education in half an afternoon. But assumed responsibility is implied im sure ....if a person does not feel they are up to that or anything most likely you are not...i weighed my risks and felt the biggest risk involved was swimming the 50 yards to shore in 1 kt winds with a pfd on

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NiceAft
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Re: Is this the boat for me?

Post by NiceAft » Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:54 am

keep in mind even McGregor says a person can learn to sail on without formal education in half an afternoon
He was very good at marketing his boats. In one of his catalogs, he showed a Ford Taurus towing an :macx: . A Mac dealer I knew told me he’s asked MacGregor how he got a Taurus to tow an :macx: . The reply was “I didn’t tell the Taurus!”

Ray

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