water ingres by the steering when heeling

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kurz
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water ingres by the steering when heeling

Post by kurz » Mon Apr 30, 2018 3:54 pm

Hello
We are actually cruising around vulcano island stromboly (Italia) with my :macm: and hat for 90min quite a big heel... so noting special.

But my crew member in the cabin noticed a sound of water lapping... and could SEE how water is coming inside the cabin by the steering rods inside the cabin. So arriving in the Marina I pumped out 100 l water. Bilge pump does not help becouse the water sits in the side bunks.

So I do not find this ok... Did someone has a good technique so caulk the steering? I guess the problem should be well known.

Andy idea?

Thanks - kurz

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Jimmyt
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Re: water ingres by the steering when heeling

Post by Jimmyt » Mon Apr 30, 2018 5:58 pm

Kurz,
Is it coming in where the rod penetrates the motor well wall? I was washing the soot off of my boat (it was in the basement when my house caught fire) and sprayed a lot of water in the motor well. This is the only time I’ve had water in the bilge. I wash down every time I take it out, so it took a lot of spraying in the wrong place to get water in. I only managed to put about 2 liters in.

It came in through the wiring boot and motor steering rod penetration.

100 liters would concern me. I’m curious to find out the story.

Are you sure your motorwell drain and sink drain don’t have an issue? Maybe the through-hull is leaking. The thru hull would put the water outboard of the ballast channels if I remember correctly.

Or, do you mean the rudder posts? If you mean it’s coming around or through the rudder posts, I have not heard of that before. Maybe you could post a picture?

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BOAT
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Re: water ingres by the steering when heeling

Post by BOAT » Mon Apr 30, 2018 6:36 pm

There should not be any water coming in no matter how far the boat heels over - I sail 'boat' all the time at 45 degrees for long periods on both sides and never have any water coming in.

Check your thru hull for the sink - the hose might be busted.

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Highlander
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Re: water ingres by the steering when heeling

Post by Highlander » Mon Apr 30, 2018 7:14 pm

I know of someone who had the same issue as U ! , He figured out it was his front V-Berth vent plug leaking ballast water into the boat when heeled over 30% I believe he replaced the vent plug !

J 8)

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seahouse
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Re: water ingres by the steering when heeling

Post by seahouse » Mon Apr 30, 2018 8:35 pm

If the stern sits low enough for long enough in the water while under extreme heel it is possible for water to enter through the space between the rudder shaft and the hole drilled in the hull to accommodate it (through the "rudder box"). This might well be what your passenger was witnessing. (Note that the top of the rudder shaft is open too, so in extreme and very rare cases water can enter unrestricted through this path as well.) The following mod both seals this path against water intrusion and provides a bearing surface (other than the factory provided thin raw fibreglass web against the metal shaft) for long-term smooth and low-friction rudder shaft operation.

http://www.macgregorsailors.com/modt/in ... ?view=1600
http://www.macgregorsailors.com/modt/in ... ?view=1601
http://www.macgregorsailors.com/modt/in ... ?view=1602

- B :wink:

kurz
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Re: water ingres by the steering when heeling

Post by kurz » Tue May 01, 2018 2:27 am

Thanks seahouse.
Yes ist exactely the place where you describe.

Thanks for your solution.

I already was thinking about using a shaft seal like this
https://busschmiede.de/shop/bilder/prod ... orn_b2.jpg

look for an outer tube thats fits with the shaft seal and glas this tube with the shaft seal.

Actually am not a professional shaft sealer...

Anyway I am not so happy that Roger MacGregor lets me do this work...

Starscream
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Re: water ingres by the steering when heeling

Post by Starscream » Tue May 01, 2018 7:05 am

Shoulda bought an X-boat. Lol. No open paths to the bilge through the rudder posts in the X. (Now that you have a GOOD answer, I can make a stupid joke)

I wonder if Kurz and BOAT have different model years of the M, with the rudder post problem being solved in later years? When I first read the post I thought it couldn't be a systemic problem with the M because I know that BOAT, Highlander, and others sail it on its side all the time with no water penetration issues. Maybe it was a particular condition in the Med that came together in just the perfectly problematic waveform/wind and loading combination to highlight the problem, or maybe Kurz' boat is missing some factory installation that prevents the problem? Wouldn't be the first time that a factory forgets to seal a shaft, but you'd like to think that a critical one like that wouldn't pass QC.

Don't know...weird, but I am with Kurz: shoulda been solved at the factory, even for a boat that wasn't intended to cross oceans.

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Jimmyt
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Re: water ingres by the steering when heeling

Post by Jimmyt » Tue May 01, 2018 9:16 am

Image

Image

These shots are of my 2013 M. The small blue tape mark is where the tip if the rudder post “bushing” stops. If you can put water above this tape mark, it will wet the bilge.

I’ve never done it, but it might be possible. An extreme heel angle with a big following sea...

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BOAT
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Re: water ingres by the steering when heeling

Post by BOAT » Tue May 01, 2018 11:05 am

You guys just insist I take things apart to show you stuff don't you?

You might need to click on these pictures to enlarge them so you can see my notes on the pictures.

Here is the back side of 'boat' - notice the position of the ladder bolts and the tiny hole - there is a tiny tank hidden behind that hole - the tiny tank holds a LOT of water (I mean A LOT!) The tiny tank is shown with a black dotted line in the picture so you need to enlarge it. Also notice the way the rudder is inside a rudder well molded into the hull - the top rudder bracket is inside against the roof of that rudder well.

Image

Where the rudder shaft exits the tiny tank is well above the top of that dotted line - you need to bury the boat above the top of that dotted line for a LONG TIME to make water overflow out of the top of the tiny tank represented by the dotted line above.

Here is the back of boat from the inside - lets take off the covers and see what's going on here:

Image


So with all the covers off we see that there is a tiny tank above the rudder well - this tiny tank can get water in it three ways:
Again, enlarge this photo to see the notes:
Image
You can see that the tiny tank holds a LOT of water! A couple of beer cans at least.

1.Water gets into the tiny tank thru the top when the wet rope is used to set the rudders - it's a minuscule amount of water and should never be an issue.
2.Water gets into the tiny tank thru the tiny hole in the back of the boat - this is only a problem if the water can't drain out - if that hole is plugged the tank will overflow into the bilge.
3.Water fills up the tiny tank so high that the water comes out of the top of the tiny tank where the rudder shaft enters the top of the tank. This might be what the problem described in this post is suggesting.

Here is the deal - if your flooding that tiny tank with so much water that it fills up so high that it's overflowing at the rudder shaft opening at the top then the tank is not properly draining or the tank is full of crap n stuff and not working at all. There is no real situations where the back of the boat would be buried in the water that far for that long a period of time - in my case I have never buried the tiny hole heeling the boat - it's just too high up to do that. Water does enter the tiny tank from the bottom where the shaft enters the tank but that's SUPPOSED to be that way - the water needs to be able to drain from the bottom too. That's how the whole thing works.

I have had a following sea fill the motor well over and over and over again while sailing downwind in a bad breaking swell - and the water goes into the tiny hole and then it DRAINS BACK OUT just like it does in the motor well. I don't get any water in the boat. The other thing you need to check is where the rudder shaft enters the bottom of that tiny tank - the rudder shaft should have slop around it where it enters the bottom of the tiny tank - that's because the tiny tank completely empties itself thru the slop between the bottom of the tiny tank and the rudder shaft - the slop around the top of the shaft where it enters the tiny tank is designed into the system - if you have sealed up that area so the water can't escape from the very bottom of the tiny tank where the shaft goes in then you have created the flooding problem right there. The bottom of the tank needs to seep water out around the shaft.

The system works perfect as designed. If you mess with the design by trying to seal up where the shaft enters the system will not drain properly.

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Tomfoolery
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Re: water ingres by the steering when heeling

Post by Tomfoolery » Tue May 01, 2018 1:29 pm

BOAT - if the tiny tank has a little clearance around the bottom of the rudder post, and also around the top where it exits into the cabin space, what is the tiny hole for? Not being a wiseguy - I'm not clear on the function of that hole if the tank is open at the top and bottom. :|

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BOAT
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Re: water ingres by the steering when heeling

Post by BOAT » Tue May 01, 2018 1:40 pm

The hole helps vent the tank - the system is set up so the water will completely drain out thru the bottom of the tiny tank where the shaft enters it. To completely drain quickly it needs extra venting - that whole system needs to be a free flowing setup - you don't really want to block up the bottom part or the tiny hole. I suppose if you wanted to seal up the top of the tiny tank where the shaft comes out you could but again, that too could cause the tiny tank to drain too slow. I don't think it would be a major issue to seal up the top but myself I do not because I want the water to flow OUT as fast as possible. I have had the water slamming the back pretty good and never had any water come in - the best way to test it is just run the boat up to full speed WOT under power with full ballast and then slam the engine into neutral and that should get a pretty good wave into the motor well. I flood the motor well ALL THE TIME getting back into Oceanside Harbor and even get my shoes wet if I'm standing on the edge of the motor well and I have never had water come in below.

The key is to make sure the tiny tank can freely empty itself quickly. The way the hull waterline and the tiny tank is set up it should never fill up more than half way - if it ever filled up over half way something is wrong - something is clogged and preventing it from draining. There should not be any water at all in the tiny tanks when the boat is resting in calm water.

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Jimmyt
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Re: water ingres by the steering when heeling

Post by Jimmyt » Tue May 01, 2018 3:24 pm

I'm wondering if Kurz has a lot of weight aft, making the stern run deeper than normal. 100 liters through the gap around the rudder post would imply a significant time submerged. Now, if he could get it deep enough to leak through the rudder post tube, he could put a lot of water in the bilge quickly.

Like I said, I've never had water enter during sailing. But I run light. I have an Etec 60 and 12 gallons of gas max. Never had more than 4 adults in the cockpit, and no one over about 190 lbs.

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BOAT
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Re: water ingres by the steering when heeling

Post by BOAT » Tue May 01, 2018 3:34 pm

I think kurz is in Europe so he is sleeping right now but when he gets up some one should ask him if he has sealed up the bottom of the tiny tank. If he has then that might be the issue. It's not possible for the boat to sit low enough in the water for the top of the posts to be submerged.

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Jimmyt
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Re: water ingres by the steering when heeling

Post by Jimmyt » Tue May 01, 2018 4:00 pm

I spent an entire career fixing problems, several of which I would have considered impossible. I've learned not to make assumptions regarding the ingenuity of others...

Image

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Gazmn
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Re: water ingres by the steering when heeling

Post by Gazmn » Tue May 01, 2018 10:32 pm

I'm glad you guys figured it out. But that sounds like an :macm: Liability :|

My :macx: sits so low in the water from all my crap that if I had an :macm: , I might have sunk :?

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