water ingres by the steering when heeling

A forum for discussing topics relating to MacGregor Powersailor Sailboats

Moderators: Catigale, Paul S, Heath_Mod, beene, Hamin' X, kmclemore, tangentair

Wayne nicol
Captain
Posts: 626
Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2013 12:21 pm
Sailboat: MacGregor 26M
Location: Queen CHarlotte Islands,B.C.---------------- lightning white 2012 26M "Merrylegs"

Re: water ingres by the steering when heeling

Post by Wayne nicol » Fri May 04, 2018 10:45 am

well in my opinion, thats perfect, because anyone doing the research, is not going to only go by the heading, but rather read into the thread, and see all the valuable information, and knowledge put out there on the thread- by the likes of yourself and other contributors.
this is exactly why these threads are so important, and why knowledgeable, clear and concise contributions, like on this thread are so valuable in the archives.

i personally dont think a semantic error in a thread title is that severe- maybe we could just ask the op to add a question mark, as it does seem to me that it was a question, and not a statement.
:)

User avatar
Jimmyt
Captain
Posts: 728
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 11:52 am
Sailboat: MacGregor 26M
Location: Mobile AL 2013 26M, 60 Etec

Re: water ingres by the steering when heeling

Post by Jimmyt » Fri May 04, 2018 11:36 am

Wayne,
Thanks for the "why can't we all just get along" post. I, too, appreciate this forum and everyone on it.

Gonna have to side with Boat on this one, though. Our boats enjoy a reputation in sailing circles that is less than stellar. Granted, most of the haters have never seen one up close, much less sailed on one.

This thread hasn't reached A clear resolution. Boat and many others have apparently never had water due to healing. Kurz and Darrenj have had water ingress. Kurz had it coming in around the "steering rods", while Darren was not aware of where it came in, but there was a lot of it. It would be great for Kurz to post a pic of where he saw leakage, as "steering rods" isn't clear to me. No offense Kurz - your English is better than mine.

Highlander has an M boat and is indicating (and shows photos demonstrating), that when the M boat is loaded per his configuration and heeling, leakage around the rudder posts is possible, if not probable.

Seahouse has posted an apparent repair to the situation without stating whether he actually had the problem of water Ingress; or merely didn't like the original design. I like the bearing surface addition vs the original fiberglass hole btw...

If I were to read this thread, I would think that the guys that own M boats can't agree whether the rudder post design is seaworthy or not. I know I'll be paying some attention to where my heeling waterline is on my transom next time out.

When I bought my boat, it was because of the dual capability (power and sail). I had read many posts on this forum and others; and noted strong opinions both ways. In fact, when I stepped on the gunwhale to climb aboard, I half expected the boat to flip over and sink. I was sure we would be lost during the test sail, and was wearing my life vest on the dock when I stepped aboard (neither the owner nor broker was wearing a vest though nor did they have one on at any point). Needless to say, I was pleasantly surprised.

It's an entry level, affordable boat. In stock configuration, and following the max loading guidelines from the manufacturer, I don't think the boat has any issues that would keep it from being seaworthy for its intended use.

This thread doesn't necessarily leave me with that impression, though. At the risk of being branded a Jr troll, I'm going to side with Boat. This thread is kind of bad PR as it stands...

Jim

drams_1999
Chief Steward
Posts: 94
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2009 9:04 pm
Sailboat: MacGregor 26M
Location: S/V Aquarius Miami, FL

Re: water ingres by the steering when heeling

Post by drams_1999 » Fri May 04, 2018 11:59 am

I am very pleased with this thread and the information in it. I have a MacM that I bought new in 2008. I have heeled her practically onto her side, and never noticed any water coming in under the aft berth, or from anywhere for that matter. Yes, I have often wondered how the water is kept out of the boat in regards to the rudders, and this thread has been very enlightening. At least now I understand the design and how it is intended to work. I am a solid believer in the design of these boats, and would gladly sail them anywhere in the proper conditions. Would I go in a hurricane? Not on any boat. Would I go out any day the weather is appropriate for the voyage? Absolutely. The boats are as safe as the people that operate them. Anyone who does their research would come to the same conclusion. I would like to thank the original poster, all the people who added their knowledge to this thread, and the moderators as well. Fair winds! (Dropping the mic)

User avatar
Highlander
Admiral
Posts: 5300
Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2005 10:25 pm
Sailboat: MacGregor 26M
Location: Maccutter26M 2008 75HP Merc. 4/S Victoria BC. Can. ' An Hileanto'ir III '
Contact:

Re: water ingres by the steering when heeling

Post by Highlander » Fri May 04, 2018 4:34 pm

When ever someone ask,s a question for help to an issue or problem they r having on their boat making suggestions & assumptions is a way of weeding out the facts & hopefully resolving the issue !. No one is saying these boats are not safe, but I have seen lots of things on brand new & used boats that would b a safety concern to me for my style of sailing !. I know of two people who filled there aft berths full of water !
#1 he forgot to tell a crew member to install the vent plug after filling the ballast tank ! problem solved " Human Error "

#2 He discovered his vent plug came off while sailing & discovered his ballast tank was half mty as the boat was not handling as good as usual ! problem solved three issues here #1 Skipper new it was becoming a loose fit " lack of maintenance "
#2 Skipper did not know that the vent plug is adjustable & could b made a tighter fit by adjusting " lack of maintenance knowledge " #3 U should always keep a spare vent plug on board tethered to the vent basin encase the rubber gasket sleeve splits in two from age :o

So by having a civilized discussion on the issue maybe we,ll find out what happened #1 human error #2 a bad mod "leaking bilge pump discharge thro-hull" ! #3 lack of maintenance inspections "loose rudder brkt/leaking sink discharge hose @ the thro-hull ? " . All of the above have happened & been documented on this site for other,s & all to learn from so it,s not B/S or lie,s !, just because someone uses the wrong terminology in trying too explain an issue whether it,s due to lack of sailing experience or knowledge or a language barrier , knowledgeable discussion by us all will eventually bring that fact to light ! :idea:
As I mentioned my concern with the rudder brkt tubes I know an oversea,s Dealer who extended then to come up thro the aft gunwales where the rudder down haul lines come up allowing them to b used as an emg tiller steering system either on port or S/B by clipping on an emg tiller handle if ur steering cable should fail ! a great Mod !

I,ve never owned or operated a boat I could not make take on water ! :o :D :D :D

Talking of which their r two European Mega Yacht builders being sued because two mega yacht,s one 80 million $ the other 100 million $ both had there keels fall off & sunk ? So never ever say Sh-t does,nt happen ! :o

Oh & by the way I,m always open to constructive criticism :D :D :D :D

Being Anal about a subject never resolves anything ?

So hopefully Kurz will resolve his issue & enlighten us all ? because Life is always a learning Curve !

J 8)

User avatar
NiceAft
Admiral
Posts: 4041
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 10:28 pm
Sailboat: MacGregor 26M
Location: Upper Dublin,PA, USA: 2005M 50hp.Honda4strk.,1979 Phantom Sport Sailboat, 9'Achilles 6HP Merc 4strk

Re: water ingres by the steering when heeling

Post by NiceAft » Fri May 04, 2018 5:55 pm

Highlander said:
I,ll guarantee u with all the mods arches ,12 miles of wiring , bilge pumps , bilge blowers, cockpit shower,s , auto pilot , steering up-grades , rudder uphaul up-grades , plus Radar harness,s, data cable harness,s ,VHF antenna cables , TV antenna cables , 2 depth sounders cables , aft mounted 120v hydro wiring , 120v hydro main power switch box , Galvanic Isolator harness , 3 battery banks over 100 ft of main battery cables
John,

You forgot to end it with “ a partriiiiiidge in a pear treeeeee.” :wink:

Ray

User avatar
BOAT
Admiral
Posts: 4243
Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2012 7:12 pm
Sailboat: MacGregor 26M
Location: Oceanside, CA MACMJ213 2013 ETEC60

Re: water ingres by the steering when heeling

Post by BOAT » Fri May 04, 2018 7:15 pm

I am not mad as anyone - this is not about being mad or anyone's opinions - I just do not want a post hanging out there that says the rudders on the "new 2013 M boats leak" with no resolution or explanation. If some one does not counter this error it's just out there for everyone to read like all the stories about the X boats that capsized - every marina I go to has a story about "A MacGregor X boat that capsized" it's like an urban legend now that every sailboat owner believes in every marina I visit.

If you all recall I went banana sh~t crazy when a previous poster created a post titled " MacGregor X Capsizes "

When i do a search in Google I always get these post showing up in the search results giving the impression that the MAC's are unsafe. It's bad enough there are so many results coming from the liars on sailing anarchy it just burns me to see them popping up with sources coming directly from the owners right here - when that happens it gives validation to the rumors.

If someone can categorically present facts that their rudder posts are leaking then i am good - but since no one can make that statement I am at a loss why anyone would defend this.

Back it up or take it back.

FishyFabs
Chief Steward
Posts: 82
Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2012 1:47 pm
Sailboat: MacGregor 26M

Re: water ingres by the steering when heeling

Post by FishyFabs » Fri May 04, 2018 11:07 pm

I once launched the boat and docked it to raise the mast. I noticed that is was listing to one side. I thought it was all the beer in the cooler but when I got into the cabin. I stepped into water. Panic set in as I thought I holed the boat during the launch or the 800km road trip. We frantically pumped out hundreds of litres and watched the level. It was not rising to my relief but we were confused for days as to why it happened. We could not understand it.

Root cause found after reviewing the video taken during launch...the launch ramp became very steep due to low tide which meant the back of the boat was in very deep but I was not in far enough to float the back end. The water level was above the outboard steering shaft and the rubber boot. The boat was in that position or quite a long time as I added fenders and did other prep work.

Pure stupidity on my side. The bilge on my :macm: stays remarkebly dry all season and I do a lot of heeling.

I suspect this is where the mystery water came from.

User avatar
Highlander
Admiral
Posts: 5300
Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2005 10:25 pm
Sailboat: MacGregor 26M
Location: Maccutter26M 2008 75HP Merc. 4/S Victoria BC. Can. ' An Hileanto'ir III '
Contact:

Re: water ingres by the steering when heeling

Post by Highlander » Sat May 05, 2018 4:22 am

BOAT said !
If someone can categorically present facts that their rudder posts are leaking then i am good - but since no one can make that statement I am at a loss why anyone would defend this.

Back it up or take it back.

Gees us Mark
I told u what the issue is , I told two very easy ways it can b resolved ! I,ve told u of other ways it can happen due too human error or lack of maint. inspections , It,s already backed up & documented on this very site by several other owners just read the above post for one !

Just because u can,t comprehend an issue or statement ! does not make it fake or false news & or never happened !!! :? Oh wait where have I heard that one before ? stop lookin in the mirror start lookin out the window & just maybe u,ll see the light & the whole picture ! :)

One guy asked a question ! He also asked for advise & help & just because he did not post his issue to ur verbal liking doe,s not give u the right too try & take charge over a post & try to get the moderators to delete it because it,s not to ur liking ! this is not ur political regime here ! every one is entitled to their opinion & or assumptions within reason & according to the rules & regulations of this site !
I hear where u r coming from & understand ur concerns ! . But I,d never let a bunch of wanna be,s like sailing anarchy get under my skin or concern me like they seem to do to u ? so u already lost the battle with them u r trying to win !

some one in our great sailing family community is askin for advise so lets not loose our focus here , communication , discussions , suggestions , negotiation resolves more than Dictatorship ever will have !

Just Sayin That,s All

J 8)

User avatar
Jimmyt
Captain
Posts: 728
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 11:52 am
Sailboat: MacGregor 26M
Location: Mobile AL 2013 26M, 60 Etec

Re: water ingres by the steering when heeling

Post by Jimmyt » Sat May 05, 2018 7:36 am

Fishyfabs,
Excellent post. Glad to be made aware that launching can force the stern low enough to cause water entry at the steering arm and wiring boot under certain conditions. I’ve never stopped at that point during launching to do anything, due to our Ramp General. She takes the ramp fee and gives you about 2 minutes on the ramp max before she starts yelling at you to get it done or get out of the way. That is similar to Highlander’s warning regarding beaching, tides, and full ballast tank causing a problem. I’m more likely to have the launching issue as I hate the idea of having sand scratching up my polished bottom (actually, the boat’s). If I ever go to a ramp without a frantic attendant, I’ll know not to tarry...

Hopefully, Darrenj will give some feedback on what his friend’s issue was. This is the type of thing that could drive you nuts. I would not have had a launch video to check.

Out of curiosity, do you launch with your ballast valve open or closed?

User avatar
Tomfoolery
Admiral
Posts: 5208
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2011 9:42 am
Sailboat: MacGregor 26X
Location: Rochester, NY '99X BF50 'Tomfoolery'

Re: water ingres by the steering when heeling

Post by Tomfoolery » Sat May 05, 2018 7:56 am

FishyFabs wrote:Root cause found after reviewing the video taken during launch...the launch ramp became very steep due to low tide which meant the back of the boat was in very deep but I was not in far enough to float the back end. The water level was above the outboard steering shaft and the rubber boot. The boat was in that position or quite a long time as I added fenders and did other prep work.
My :macx: does that, too, on the very steep ramp at my marina. But it doesn't take in water, as there are no holes back there. It may, however, soak the ends of the control cables in the OB, as the water is high enough to completely flood the engine well at the minimum; maybe higher, but when I saw that, I moved it without studying it.

Now I slacken up the winch line (chain removed) and have it fully ready with fenders and long dock lines before it touches the water, so I can back it in just to where I can reach the winch without getting wet. At that point, it's level enough to not bury the stern.

It was kind of disturbing the first time I saw the stern that far under. Sounds like it could be the root cause of the OP's issue, assuming he launched that day.

User avatar
Jimmyt
Captain
Posts: 728
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 11:52 am
Sailboat: MacGregor 26M
Location: Mobile AL 2013 26M, 60 Etec

Re: water ingres by the steering when heeling

Post by Jimmyt » Sat May 05, 2018 8:24 am

I wonder if Kurz flooded it during launching, causing the boat to sit lower in the water. When his crew noted the water ingress at the rudder post, it may have been a result of the flooding - rather than the flooding being a result of the rudder post leakage. Maybe that’s what Tomfoolery just said, but I wasn’t smart enough to figure it out...
Last edited by Jimmyt on Sat May 05, 2018 8:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
NiceAft
Admiral
Posts: 4041
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 10:28 pm
Sailboat: MacGregor 26M
Location: Upper Dublin,PA, USA: 2005M 50hp.Honda4strk.,1979 Phantom Sport Sailboat, 9'Achilles 6HP Merc 4strk

Re: water ingres by the steering when heeling

Post by NiceAft » Sat May 05, 2018 8:45 am

He said it happened during launching. He also said that he did work on the boat while it was on the ramp, all the while at that acute angle, causing the stern to be deeper in the water than he realized. What he realized later was
I was not in far enough to float the back end. The water level was above the outboard steering shaft and the rubber boot. The boat was in that position or quite a long time as I added fenders and....
The water egress was through the hole where the rubber boot is in the motor well.

Ray

P.S. I fill the ballast after the launch. The ballast intake valve is closed until after I am floating free.
Last edited by NiceAft on Sat May 05, 2018 8:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Jimmyt
Captain
Posts: 728
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 11:52 am
Sailboat: MacGregor 26M
Location: Mobile AL 2013 26M, 60 Etec

Re: water ingres by the steering when heeling

Post by Jimmyt » Sat May 05, 2018 8:50 am

Sorry Ray,
I was talking about Kurz, the original poster...

I should have made that more clear. I’m thinking that between Fishyfabs and Tomfoolery, the original mystery may have been solved.

But, it’s always safe to assume I’m an idiot...

Jim

User avatar
NiceAft
Admiral
Posts: 4041
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 10:28 pm
Sailboat: MacGregor 26M
Location: Upper Dublin,PA, USA: 2005M 50hp.Honda4strk.,1979 Phantom Sport Sailboat, 9'Achilles 6HP Merc 4strk

Re: water ingres by the steering when heeling

Post by NiceAft » Sat May 05, 2018 8:58 am

Jimmyt wrote:Sorry Ray,
I was talking about Kurz, the original poster...

I should have made that more clear. I’m thinking that between Fishyfabs and Tomfoolery, the original mystery may have been solved.

But, it’s always safe to assume I’m an idiot...

Jim
Jim,

Join the club.

The amount of idiotic things done and said by all of us is best left untouched. It should be the worst thing that happens to either one of us.

Ray

User avatar
Highlander
Admiral
Posts: 5300
Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2005 10:25 pm
Sailboat: MacGregor 26M
Location: Maccutter26M 2008 75HP Merc. 4/S Victoria BC. Can. ' An Hileanto'ir III '
Contact:

Re: water ingres by the steering when heeling

Post by Highlander » Sat May 05, 2018 3:06 pm

Mac up-date
https://www.google.ca/search?q=mac+subm ... KUVHg_E2HM:

I think Kurz is a little busy right now !
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eS7ENymCpZE

Oh I forgot BOAT flies his boat higher than the rest of us !
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/23/48/13/2348 ... s-tack.jpg

J 8)
Last edited by Highlander on Sat May 05, 2018 3:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Post Reply