water ingres by the steering when heeling

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Highlander
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Re: water ingres by the steering when heeling

Post by Highlander » Sat May 05, 2018 3:58 pm


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Darrin Stubbs
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Re: water ingres by the steering when heeling

Post by Darrin Stubbs » Thu May 10, 2018 5:44 pm

I understand where you are coming from BOAT. When I was researching the best sail boat for my needs and came across something like this title, I may not have bought my 26M last fall. Maybe the original poster could change the title to solve that concern. What I do not want to happen is to have the thread removed! I have learned a lot from the responses, especially your pictures with the directions. In fact I plan to look at my boat this weekend while referring to your pictures and info. I would absolutely hate to lose that. Thank you for posting that info.
BOAT wrote:I am not mad as anyone - this is not about being mad or anyone's opinions - I just do not want a post hanging out there that says the rudders on the "new 2013 M boats leak" with no resolution or explanation. If some one does not counter this error it's just out there for everyone to read like all the stories about the X boats that capsized - every marina I go to has a story about "A MacGregor X boat that capsized" it's like an urban legend now that every sailboat owner believes in every marina I visit.

If you all recall I went banana sh~t crazy when a previous poster created a post titled " MacGregor X Capsizes "

When i do a search in Google I always get these post showing up in the search results giving the impression that the MAC's are unsafe. It's bad enough there are so many results coming from the liars on sailing anarchy it just burns me to see them popping up with sources coming directly from the owners right here - when that happens it gives validation to the rumors.

If someone can categorically present facts that their rudder posts are leaking then i am good - but since no one can make that statement I am at a loss why anyone would defend this.

Back it up or take it back.

kurz
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Re: water ingres by the steering when heeling

Post by kurz » Fri May 11, 2018 11:41 am

Hello all again

Sorry for not reading so far. I was quite a bit busy. We had a gread trip an visited all aeolien islands near Sizilia Italy with my :macm: (2011)
Really great destination, and also climbed up the active vulcano stromboly and could watch how he growled stones and heat out.
But then first I hat the kill some mafiosi, take out the Boat, go the the Ferry, eat a pizza... then ride back from Genova over the Alps back to Zürich in Switzerland... Then go back to work :evil:
So now I am here again:

To the story: Later the anchorage get bad in the night and at 4am we decidet to leave.

So mabe two hours later I had the problem with the water ingress. I was at the helm not noticing anything. My crew friend inside the cabin HEARD the water coming in. I went down the cabin, took a torch I could clearly see where the water ingress was. The water even splashed out of the vertical "rudder tube" (that comes out of the "tiny tank").
Ok, it was so clear for us as it can be.
After reading all posts here I better had taken the mobile putting my as$ down and making a video for all your guys here. Heeling as you can, some waves... But we didnt think about making a video becouse it was so clear. Maybe there was even water coming from the steering arm, who knows.

Step by step I want get the :macm: dry... So at the moment I plan to seal the tubes with this HT tubes from sanytary, I can get them exactely in 32mm diamter like it is in the mac.
https://www.hornbach.de/data/shop/D04/0 ... 161538.jpg

Thanks for all your posts!

Great - kurz

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BOAT
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Re: water ingres by the steering when heeling

Post by BOAT » Fri May 11, 2018 12:42 pm

If you guys are really getting that much water in thru the top of the rudder post I think your only real solution is to put a hose over the top of the rudder post that fits very very tight onto the rudder post and then run that hose up and over to the motor well with new holes in the motor well.

If your flooding that bad then you don't have a leak - you have a full on thru hull fitting issue to deal with there much like the motor well drain where you need a permanent circuit from the rudder post to the outside.

You will need to let the hose poke out the hole loose where ever you exit the boat - because the hose needs to turn when the rudders turn.

This is the first documented issue I have ever heard of for this - and in my opinion it's serious enough to make the boat unsafe. I myself would not sail a boat with that serious of a breach in the hull.

I do not believe that M boat is seaworthy.

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Jimmyt
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Re: water ingres by the steering when heeling

Post by Jimmyt » Fri May 11, 2018 3:18 pm

Kurz,
Wish you lived closer. I'd like to look into the issue with you. I get Highlander's situation, with the huge outboard, and more mods than Carter has Pills... But a stock M with a 60 Etec being on the verge of swamping due to rudder post system leakage is a real mystery to me.

Do you have any pictures of how your boat normally sits in the water?

Please keep us informed as you unravel the mystery.

I would encourage you to change your drain tubing on your sink and motor well first. I understand that you see water coming in around and through the rudder posts. However, you indicate that the boat had a lot of water in it when you looked. As highlander points out, if the boat is heavy enough, it may leak at the rudders when heeled. I'm still wondering if your rudder leakage is a result of your boat getting swamped by your through-hull - making it heavy enough to submerge your rudder penetrations.

Good luck!

Jim
Last edited by Jimmyt on Fri May 11, 2018 4:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Highlander
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Re: water ingres by the steering when heeling

Post by Highlander » Fri May 11, 2018 4:08 pm

Like I said only happens under very bad conditions especially if u store a lot of heavy stuff under the aft berth it,s only happened to me a couple times & that,s the only place water can come in if every thing else is sealed & as I said the best way to resolve this issue is to extend the rudder tubes up thro the gunwales where ur rudder down haul lines come thro make them extend enough so as they can also b used as emg. steering by having an removable snap-on tiller which can go on either side

here is a pic of this Mod that was originally posted by Kurz I don,t know where he seen it or who,s boat it was
http://www.ecoyachts.com.au/uploads/3/1 ... 0_orig.jpg

and here,s the original post I believe
http://www.tattoosailors.org/forum/view ... 11#p295794

J 8)
PS Kurz if u have any more pic,s of this mod from inside the aft berth could u please post them or e/m them to me I think this is a great mod don,t know who done it tho ?, even as an emg tiller resolves the issue at hand also

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Highlander
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Re: water ingres by the steering when heeling

Post by Highlander » Fri May 11, 2018 4:42 pm

long situations like this is what I,m referring too ! also
http://www.setcc.com/boatpix/jonicacs.jpg

J 8)

kurz
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Re: water ingres by the steering when heeling

Post by kurz » Sat May 12, 2018 3:22 am

I have not more pics from the mod with the other tiller mod.

And no, the thru hull fitting is ok. The thru hull fitting sits quite low and the water came so much higher, unfortunately is not the problem.

I think I have normal load on the boat. Two people, Merc60HP, 60 litters in water blade under rear berth...

Wenn I seal the rudder post with the this
Image

The I think you just can put a hose over the rudder post. And water cannot anymore splash in.
To be honest the system does not have to be sealed like a diesel engine. If in bad conditions some water drops will arrive... no problem. I just don't want get in gallons...

FishyFabs
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Re: water ingres by the steering when heeling

Post by FishyFabs » Sat May 12, 2018 7:44 am

Jimmyt wrote:Fishyfabs,
Excellent post. Glad to be made aware that launching can force the stern low enough to cause water entry at the steering arm and wiring boot under certain conditions. I’ve never stopped at that point during launching to do anything, due to our Ramp General. She takes the ramp fee and gives you about 2 minutes on the ramp max before she starts yelling at you to get it done or get out of the way. That is similar to Highlander’s warning regarding beaching, tides, and full ballast tank causing a problem. I’m more likely to have the launching issue as I hate the idea of having sand scratching up my polished bottom (actually, the boat’s). If I ever go to a ramp without a frantic attendant, I’ll know not to tarry...

Hopefully, Darrenj will give some feedback on what his friend’s issue was. This is the type of thing that could drive you nuts. I would not have had a launch video to check.

Out of curiosity, do you launch with your ballast valve open or closed?

The ballets valve would have been open for sure as I transport it that way. Perhaps the boat would have floated had it been closed

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Jimmyt
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Re: water ingres by the steering when heeling

Post by Jimmyt » Sat May 12, 2018 11:11 am

Fishyfabs,

Thanks for the feedback. I always launch with the ballast valve closed, and empty the ballast before putting the boat on the trailer. My ramp is fairly steep, but I don't pause during launching. Trying not to overload my single axle trailer.

Kurz,
Have you plugged your thru-hull and sink drain and flooded your motor well? Actually, you can plug the thru-hull and pour about 2 gals into your sink drain if your trailer is reasonably level. This will flood the sink and motor well so it should allow you to check the whole drain system. I just finished checking mine. If your thru hull is below water and your drain tube or fittings have a leak anywhere you will get a lot of water. If yours is routed like mine, there could be a hole in the drain hose that would be hard to see.

As you point out, 60 liters of water under the rear berth (140 lbs); a 60hp outboard; and two reasonably sized humans probably isn't enough to overload the stern. I assume your not carrying more than 120 liters of fuel in the stern?

Per Highlander's recent input, were you in a 3 meter following sea condition? You said the weather was bad. Were you taking waves in the cockpit? I assume neither you nor your crew has recently appeared on an episode of "my 600 lb life", :?

Thanks for your info on this. I find your problem to be both very interesting and very disturbing.

Jim

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Highlander
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Re: water ingres by the steering when heeling

Post by Highlander » Sun May 13, 2018 10:32 am

Two pieces of 1" I.D.clear vinyl tubing snugly fit over the rudder s/s tubes clamp each one of them with 1" s/s hose clamps onto the s/s rudder tubes cut the vinyl tube long enough so that it goes all the way up to where ur rudder down haul lines exit the aft gunwhales , the untie ur down haul lines from ur rudders then re route the lines thro the vinyl tubing retie back onto the rudders ur all done so easy peasy !

J 8)
PS as said before also check & make sure the vent holes are not plugged from who knows what !

MinnesotaMikeMac
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Re: water ingres by the steering when heeling

Post by MinnesotaMikeMac » Wed Aug 01, 2018 7:30 pm

I too have a steep ramp that I launch on and when I do it myself I let the
Boat sit at the steep angle for a few minutes so will speed up the process of launching.
Before reading this I was resigned to punt and just deal with the water, here's one way to get the water out without removing all of the bedding and white cover plates.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/NtuQmXHWF2pvJ7fT9
https://photos.app.goo.gl/VjmbPTQiKojim95QA
https://photos.app.goo.gl/fr471DT4s8hJapcWA

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Re: water ingres by the steering when heeling

Post by MinnesotaMikeMac » Wed Aug 01, 2018 7:34 pm

I ran the tubing to the starboard storage area (there was a1 ¼"± hole already through) and will suck out any water separately from the 3 chambers with a shop vac or the suction gun.

MinnesotaMikeMac
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Re: water ingres by the steering when heeling

Post by MinnesotaMikeMac » Fri Aug 03, 2018 12:40 pm

Aha I found the leak(s)! :-)https://photos.app.goo.gl/Mg7futUgZaTnXJP57
Below the water line should have been the first place that I looked, I think I've seen this before but overlooked it for some reason.
Right or wrong I sealed with marine goop inside and out and will double check next time I'm in the water.

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Jimmyt
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Re: water ingres by the steering when heeling

Post by Jimmyt » Fri Aug 03, 2018 1:40 pm

Definitely looks suspicious. Hope that was it.

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