Storms on the Chesapeake

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Tomfoolery
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Re: Storms on the Chesapeake

Post by Tomfoolery » Fri May 25, 2018 12:03 pm

eodjedi wrote:Wish I had some mangroves to anchor to. Alas, I had to count on the muddy ground I was stuck on to hold me steady.
Not for nothin', but you might want to consider a Fortress for mud bottoms. It's the only anchor I'm aware of with a) adjustable fluke angle that b) can be set specifically for mud. The standard Danforth fluke angle is 32 deg., which the Fortress also has, but the Fortress can also be set to 45 degrees.

I've found through experience that the standard 32 deg angle is next to useless for mud, as it drags too easily, but set to 45 degrees, it sets easily and will bury itself to where I have to struggle to get it out. But it doesn't want to set at all in sand, and just sort of pops out or skips, until I reset to 32 degrees, and it digs and buries itself in sand.

I took this in Lake Simcoe, which is halfway between Lakes Ontario and Georgian Bay in Lake Huron. Clear water and clean sand near the beach, with light wind and mild wave action. It wouldn't set worth beans, and skipped and set, skipped and set, until I realized I had it set to 45 deg for my local sailing grounds (mainly mud). After I realized what was happening and reset it to 32 deg, it buried itself with no effort, though I may have backed down on it a bit when setting.

Image

It's only an FX-7, which weighs a mere 4 lb (aluminium), but it's the largest that fits in the anchor locker. Roughly equivalent to an 8-9 lb Danforth. I think the :macm: has a larger locker, thank goodness. :) I also keep a larger fluke anchor, plus a larger Claw, down below just in case.

The next gen roll bar type anchors are not exactly known for mud holding ability, but then, I don't know of many others that actually are good at mud holding other than the Fortress. If I had a real bow roller, I'd keep a nice size Rocna or Mantus on it (like yours $$) or a Spade ($$$), with a larger Fortress down below, rigged and ready to go, in case of emergency, and/or winds and waves with a mud bottom, which seems to be something it excels at.

For its size, of course, as tossing a 500 lb anchor of almost any design overboard would hold the boat in a blow. :wink:

whgoffrn
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Re: Storms on the Chesapeake

Post by whgoffrn » Fri May 25, 2018 1:01 pm

I think I had read a while back when I had an anchor (danforth) drag when i first bought my boat and it put me in a dangeous spot and failed to reset and sent me on a googling mission to find a better anchor that the fortress has the highest holding power pound for pound which sounds good but it only helps if the wind doesn't shift and pop it out of the sand or mud if it does pop out in high winds the anchor has a hard time digging in when your boat is moving at 7 knots backwards ... it will just skip along the bottom .... so not only does holding power come into play you also have to consider how fast will it reset and reset GOOD and completely bury itself or will it skip along the bottom

Wayne nicol
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Re: Storms on the Chesapeake

Post by Wayne nicol » Fri May 25, 2018 4:22 pm

anchors and anchoring can be such a contentious topic, so i always tread warily.
we anchor in mud, weed( eelgrass) and pea gravel mix up here- sometimes its just sloppy mud, and i have found the best results with the plow anchors.
what i did was took a walk around on the local work boat docks, and looked at what the professionals were using.
the majority up here used a plow of some sorts- never saw any with the roll bars, and very , very few of the danforth types.
quite a few of the cqr, but mostly just non-hinged plows.
figured they knew a thing or two and had the experience :)

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Ixneigh
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Re: Storms on the Chesapeake

Post by Ixneigh » Fri May 25, 2018 7:20 pm

The power sailors can blow sideways so fast I'm not sure any anchor could reset in full stampede mode :D :P

Ix

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NiceAft
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Re: Storms on the Chesapeake

Post by NiceAft » Fri May 25, 2018 8:21 pm

BOATUS has written many articles on the subject of anchors. I for one, respect their opinions, and when they don’t give one, they do supply enough information for an intelligent opinion of your own.

Ray

https://www.boatus.com/seaworthy/magazi ... horing.asp

http://www.boatus.com/boattech/articles/anchoring.asp

http://www.boatus.com/boattech/casey/an ... -rodes.asp

http://www.boatus.com/seaworthy/assets/ ... r-test.pdf

https://www.boatus.org/findings/05/

FishyFabs
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Re: Storms on the Chesapeake

Post by FishyFabs » Fri May 25, 2018 11:38 pm

I read that two anchors in series hold better than in a V formation. The reason is that each anchor will only experience Half the force at any time. With a V formation, sharing the load between two anchors equally can only happen if the boat in perfectly aligned to the wind, does not swing and rode is exactly the same length. Ie. Will never happen so each anchor may need to carry the full load and may pop because of it.

A series setup is also easier to deploy than the V. The Rocna anchor has a slot specifically designed to attach a second anchor in series and i bet the other brands in the Rocna class have that slot too.

From what I can tell, the disadvantage of a series deployment is that your rode is a single point of failure and your swing radius will be larger than in a V.

Touch wood, I have never needed a series or V formation. But if I do, I will probably just tie my never used Fortress with 6 feet of chain to the Rocna and hope the book was right!

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NiceAft
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Re: Storms on the Chesapeake

Post by NiceAft » Sat May 26, 2018 5:01 am

Touch wood, I have never needed a series or V formation. But if I do, I will probably just tie my never used Fortress with 6 feet of chain to the Rocna and hope the book was right!
If you ever do have the misfortune to be in the situation where you think you need to place anchors in series, I just hope you have enough time to do it before being blown overboard :o :? :D

Ray

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Ixneigh
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Re: Storms on the Chesapeake

Post by Ixneigh » Sat May 26, 2018 10:04 am

Test the tandem anchor setup first on land!!!!!
I found it to be problem prone.
And if you have to get under way in a hurry it's an un mitigated disaster. If the wind shifts and the first one pulled out, it can can foul the other. I have never used it after a brief experiment. Bahamian moor, maybe. Seldom use it now, avoid anchoring in crowded areas. Maybe if I'm going to be There a while I may put out a smaller anchor to limit boat movement and prevent fouling of my large anchor.
Anchors like some other things...bigger the better and two smaller ones aren't the same.

Ix

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Re: Storms on the Chesapeake

Post by Wayne nicol » Sat May 26, 2018 10:27 am

i have found the bahamnian moor a very successful setup- but yes- there are some tricks into setting it up- otherwise, it can turn into a rats nest.
this is not in contrast to a single big anchor philosophy, more in addition to it.

for our very small anchorages-i am often alone in a spot, no other boats to worry about- but it keeps me in the exact spot- no chance of landing on the beach- and i use the term "beach" here quite loosely :)
i set up the two anchors both attached to a small float, and i tie to the float- i dont tie an anchor fore and aft.

with reference to what fishy said above, if i am expecting a big blow i will stll put out a Bahamian moor , but with a tandem anchor in series set for the prevailing weather.
so that's three anchors in the water. But that's very extreme. I use 25# plow anchors all around.

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Sumner
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Re: Storms on the Chesapeake

Post by Sumner » Sat May 26, 2018 11:30 am

I've used the Bahamian moor quite a bit but feel that it has its limitations. It was designed to be used in a narrow channel where the tidal current is going one way and then the other. Both anchors are off the bow but one is down the channel one way and the other is down the channel the other. The boat stays in the middle of the channel and just swings 180 degrees one way or the other on tidal current changes. It wasn't really designed to be a good anchoring situation for high winds.

I've also used it as mentioned above to keep the boat close to shore where the depth deepens rapidly off shore or I want to get in close to shore inside other boats but don't want to get into them. It works well in that situation or any time you want the boat to stay in the same place and not swing. That might be all you can do in those situations but if say the two anchors are parallel to the shore and the wind is blowing from shore or to the shore more or less at 90 degrees to a line between the two anchors that isn't so good. The reason being that now the pull on the anchor and rode is 90 degrees to them which is trying to rotate both anchors one way or the other and isn't a direct pull on either. If the wind is parallel to a line between the two anchors like the tidal current situation that is good, but then you are still only anchored on one at a time.

A real downside to the Bahamian moor is if you have been on it a few days and the boat doesn't swing back and forth 180 degrees in the same direction but swings 360 the lines get twisted. Happened to us more than once. I found the best way to untwist them was tying the dinghy to the side of the boar and using it to swing the Mac in 360 degree circles. As was mentioned by Ix if this has happened you aren't going to pull up the anchors quickly if for some reason you need to. I don't anchor this way as much as I use to. Never did it in the Bahamas alone but did put two anchors down there alone a couple times for big wind events.

I did use the Bahamian moor once in Floriday where there was high winds but in a different configuration.

Image
http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner ... 11-25.html

We were on the west side of a Key and the prevailing wind was from the east but was suppose to maybe clock 180 degrees during the night. I moved in as close to the Key as possible and put down one anchor in shallow water. Then I let the boat drift back out twice the amount of rode I wanted on that anchor and set the anchor with the outboard. Then we put the second anchor down in deeper water. This is Florida where the water does not get deep fast. I pulled the boat back towards the first anchor until I was half way between them and set the second anchor with the outboard. Use a lot of outboard and you will know if you have a good holding. What this accomplished was I was on only the anchor near shore at first. Then as the wind clocked I was on both, without a good pull angle on either, but when the wind shifted to the west the west anchor prevented the boat from swinging all the way around on the first, where it would of hit the shore. The above situation was the only one where I think we ever had an anchor drag. I think one did about 20 feet and feel that it probably did it when the wind was clocking and the pull wise sideways on both anchors. They were both set the next day when we left.

I don't think there is one best way. Look at the situation. What the wind is suppose to do and come up with the best plan. I love anchoring and the challenges that go with it,

Sumner

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whgoffrn
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Re: Storms on the Chesapeake

Post by whgoffrn » Sat May 26, 2018 3:30 pm

Mistakes I've made anchoring is anchoring too close to land .... it goes against your basic instinct to associate land with safety so I used to anchor close to land ..... this last thanksgiving despite having been taught this same lesson not to anchor close to an island ....i looked at weather report said winds 3kts all night and I literally anchored right up on the island i maybe had 1 foot under the boat before sand couldn't even put the engine down .... I anchored like that so my kids could get off the boat and explore the island while I rested in ..plus icw has gators so I got in close .....about 1am 30-40kt winds for hours ... I didn't have the strength to pull the boat out farther and prob only had 4:1 scope cause I was afraid a jetskiier or flats boat would hit my anchor line if I anchored too far out...and i couldn't motor cause engine would hit sand .... did my Mantus anchor hold (it was the 35lb) yes but i still never got a second of sleep till it stopped cause I knew if I drug even 1 foot my boat was in deep trouble and prob be holed cause there were some tree root branches 2 to 3 feet behind the boat so yes I was sweating it for several hours
I've since learned anchoring in deeper water is safer.... you don't have to worry about if you do happen to drag your scope decreasing ...if you anchor in 3 feet of water with 21feet scope (7:1) and drag out in to 12 + feet of water your anchor will never reset ....were as vice versa if you are 200 yards off an island in 12 feet of water and have a 7:1 scope and a storm rolls through blowing you towards the island your scope increases if you did happen to drag

Everyone has their opinions on what they feel is best for sketchy anchoring situations my opinion and is strictly that an opinion is one BIG oversized newer anchors with a fast reset rate ...dont worry so much about holding power as getting 1 or 2 sizes bigger takes care of that but you want an anchor that digs in FAST if it popped out or one that will turn under the sand as the wind shifts ..... I did a lot of research on anchors a few years ago and Mantus and Manson supreme were top of my list on reset speeds

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Sumner
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Re: Storms on the Chesapeake

Post by Sumner » Sat May 26, 2018 4:10 pm

whgoffrn wrote:....if you anchor in 3 feet of water with 21feet scope (7:1) .....


21 feet in 3 foot of water would be closer to a 3.5:1 scope. You need to also add the distance from the water up to where the rode attaches to the boat, probably about another 3 feet. 7:1 would be 42 feet of scope. I do that and don't count the 25 feet of chain in the equation 8) .

In my instance it would be 50' of rope rode as it is marked every 25 feet....

Image
http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner ... ing-4.html

... and another 25' chain for 75 total for a 12.5:1 scope. If I had to anchor off a windward shore I'd probably do even more scope :wink:
whgoffrn wrote:.......... I did a lot of research on anchors a few years ago and Mantus and Manson supreme were top of my list on reset speeds
Yep, love the Manson Supreme on both boats :)

Sumner

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Wayne nicol
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Re: Storms on the Chesapeake

Post by Wayne nicol » Sat May 26, 2018 4:50 pm

i totally agree sumner, one has to have a full bag of tricks when anchoring, one method wont work everywhere.
for us, we have steep mountains coming straight down to the water and into narrow long steep channels. anchoring is very limited, usually our wind either blows up the channel or down the channel- thats where the Bahamian moor works well for us, in a different place, maybe not so much.

first time i used the system, it got all twisted up, now i tie each rode to a small buoy, then i attach my boat line to the buoy via an anchor swivel as well. have spent days on the anchor, and never a problem.
the nice thing about that- i can leave the anchor in place, go out of the cove, fish for a day, come back and just hook up.

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