Yet another powersailor

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Norca
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Yet another powersailor

Post by Norca » Thu May 31, 2018 7:08 am

Swallow yachts in England announce a new line of 3 powersailors
from 21 - 29 feet .
I am not sure aboat the steering but it looks like they are using the rudder when motoring.
If You have a large rudder that gives good control. would it be too big for motoring at 15 knots?
I like the center mounted outboard, it gives the best weight distribution.

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Ixneigh
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Re: Yet another powersailor

Post by Ixneigh » Thu May 31, 2018 7:49 am

The build quality is probably better. But how about performance?
Ix

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Jimmyt
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Re: Yet another powersailor

Post by Jimmyt » Thu May 31, 2018 8:24 am

I watched the video for the 26ft. Water ballast, twin rudders, headroom, sliding galley, enclosed head, easy rigging, mast raising system... sounds familiar. Not intended to carry high hp motors, or plane under power as best I can tell. Aux power can be diesel inboard or outboard in well. The 26 in the video had tiller steering.

It looks like a Mac 26 that has been knocked off with extreme attention to detail, and a budget that's probably a bit larger than my wallet can handle ($75-$100k range on internet). Beautiful boat, and appears to sail very well.

I value the speed that the Etec 60 provides, and the ability to pull a tube, wakeboard, etc. But, the Swallow is a fine looking boat.

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Norca
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Re: Yet another powersailor

Post by Norca » Thu May 31, 2018 9:45 am

Herte is the link: http://swallowyachts.com/range/coast-250-new/
They promise 15 knots with 70hp outboard

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Re: Yet another powersailor

Post by NiceAft » Thu May 31, 2018 9:47 am

When looking at the Swallow Yachts website, I did not see a video. I did see they offer a 70 hp outboard, but the outboard is located amidship. An all around interesting boat.

Also, the only information I saw was for their 25 foot version. They offer a smaller boat, and also a 29 footer. As Colonel Klink said, “Interesting. Very interesting”

Ray
Last edited by NiceAft on Thu May 31, 2018 1:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Jimmyt
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Re: Yet another powersailor

Post by Jimmyt » Thu May 31, 2018 12:32 pm

Silly me - I was looking at the 26 Baycruiser. There are videos for the baycruiser. But, alas, it is not the boat you guys were discussing. Oops.

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Norca
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Re: Yet another powersailor

Post by Norca » Thu May 31, 2018 1:40 pm

The trouble with a large outboard on a sailing boat is that mounted on the stern, it’s exactly where you don’t want the weight, spoiling trim and increasing pitching. It can be made to work using a powerboat hull shape, with a deeply submerged transom to support the weight of the engine. Until now, this has been the approach in craft claiming to sail and motor quickly, but its huge disadvantage is sailing performance. A deep, submerged transom creates a bucket load of drag at sailing speeds, to say nothing of the weight of an engine on the transom.

I agree with this, and it is probably the biggest disadvantage of the mac, I like the boat, but they are probably expensive.
Anyone have a price estimate?

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sailboatmike
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Re: Yet another powersailor

Post by sailboatmike » Thu May 31, 2018 7:22 pm

That is ONE UGLY BOAT, not sleek and streamlined like a Mac.

It looks like its still in the "Drawing Board" stage as there are no pictures of a real boat
Nobody seems to of taken the time to sit down with a owner of a Mac being the "premier" power sailor and ask how do we improve what is already a great design, rather they run away and pay navel architects buckets of money and still in just about all cases come away with what is a inferior design to the original.

Can you imagine having to step around that huge outboard cover on the way into the cabin? I know with my 75Hp is a squeeze getting on the transom as the gap isn't huge, now imagine that in the middle of the companion way!

I mean just 10 minutes of research on this forum would give them a heap of knowledge of what we, the owners of the Premier power sailors think could be / needs to be improved.

Stern drag isn't a big issue on the Macs because they have wide flat transoms, a requirement for planing, as such the transom doesnt dig in because of its buoyancy unlike on a displacement boat that has little buoyancy in the transom, just look that the change in the water line, with close to (139kg) 300lbs of motor sitting out the back of my X she sits down at the back by maybe 1 1/2 inches and thats also with an additional (60kg) 140lbs of fuel in the lockers, so around 440lbs right at the back and still not a heap of deflection in the water line. Most 26 foot displacement boats you put that sort of weight at the back and the transom would be under water.

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Re: Yet another powersailor

Post by NiceAft » Thu May 31, 2018 7:39 pm

I guess beauty is, in the eye of the beholder.

I did not find the craft unattractive, or the motor hood, that, inconvenient. It is an interesting idea. As previously stated, steering is apparently done with the rudders always down. I can’t imagine this boat achieving MacGregor speeds under power. I’m sure there is a market for it. I wish them luck.

Ray

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Re: Yet another powersailor

Post by dlandersson » Fri Jun 01, 2018 6:46 am

What I get from this is that Roger was way ahead of his time and hit the sweet spot.

The point about outboard engine placement is well taken, but may be a necessary compromise. $75k? :|
NiceAft wrote:I guess beauty is, in the eye of the beholder.

I did not find the craft unattractive, or the motor hood, that, inconvenient. It is an interesting idea. As previously stated, steering is apparently done with the rudders always down. I can’t imagine this boat achieving MacGregor speeds under power. I’m sure there is a market for it. I wish them luck.

Ray
Last edited by dlandersson on Fri Jun 01, 2018 10:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Yet another powersailor

Post by NiceAft » Fri Jun 01, 2018 8:39 am

$75K is outside of my budget, but for those who have enough disposable income to play with, why not. They are the ones who keep economy’s going. Some will, some won’t, so what. 8) Sailing is not a cheap hobby, even if you own a MacGregor :D

Ray

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Re: Yet another powersailor

Post by BOAT » Fri Jun 01, 2018 9:23 am

The Baycruiser is not new. I have seen the Baycruiser before at show - it's a nice boat, but no where near as roomy as an X boat - in fact the M boat is more roomy than the Baycruiser but really, the Baycruiser is a different kind of boat than the MAC hybrids - the Baycruiser is a real 100% sailboat build - no planeing hull - not big motors. It's a great boat if you were looking to get a regular trailer sailboat. (I love the galley).

The 'Coast250' is something new - never saw that before. Good eye Norca.

It looks like a nice boat but I did not see any pictures of a "real" boat so it leads me to the same issue as the Tattoo - it's not really a boat. It's just a picture.

They can say all the crap they want but until it's a REAL BOAT I don't belive one word of the copy. That's the problem with the internet age - manufactures can try out anything on the public without actually making anything. I suspect this boat: the "Coast250" will go the same way as the Doe Doe Bird and the Tattoo21. (Nowhere).

If the market was there for this kind of thing the boats would be real, not pictures on a website. The fact that all these boats are always introduced as pictures on websites with no boats ever getting built proves that there is no market for them.

I'm not saying that there might be a market for such a boat in the future - if the economy keeps getting better over here and if people under 30 decide to finally move out of their parents homes and get married and have kids and start wanting some family activities I can see the demand for trailer sailboats that go fast under power as a weekend family toy but right now here in the US most people 35 and under are still 10 years behind due to the past 8 years of conditions in the US.

Hopefully, there might be a market for a boat soon. If the economy really fires up Swallow just might be one of the first ready to take advantage, but it appears to me they are just testing the market here - no real boats seems to be in production. This is just Tattoo21 all over again.

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Re: Yet another powersailor

Post by Wayne nicol » Fri Jun 01, 2018 10:15 am

to me, the single most important lesson with boats is that everything is a compromise, I guess it all depends on what you are prepared to compromise on, and what you are not!!

i think its a great design, and a few of the Mac features have been copied- the sliding galley etc ( personally- my least favourite)

there are many powerboats that will plane at 30 kn with a shaft and rudder- i dont see this one being a problem, in principle.

i think the engine well hood could make a great cockpit surface /table- just like when we fish on boats that have an IB/OB setup. many very successful designs have incorporated OB's in wells- seems to be a popular feature in English circles. its a system that works, combining the best of all worlds. With some compromise of course.

i like the tiller and thru- transom setup

it does not have an out of the weather helm- just like the macs, a huge drawback IMO.- folk in Florida or So. Cal. may not mind, but those of us up in the PNW, its a factor.

the offset companionway, i would like to see how that compromises self-righting on the port side- if i am seeing that right

i dont like the winch position, and how it will be in the way or compromised with a fitment of a dodger

as for the aesthetics, i dont find them bad, no worse than the Mac- personally, (and this is very personal) - i don't like euro styling, i prefer more traditional lines. this seems to be a compromise between the two.

without looking at a hull sketch, its hard to comment on the performance, but looking at their overhead plan, and making the assumption( we all know what assuming stands for) that they have tried to generate floatation aft with the very wide stern, almost akin to modern high speed downwind demons.- i will bet they have more stern floatation than the Macs.
that wide transom comes at the compromise of upwind performance, the modern race boats overcome this by having a radically different hull profile when the boat is heeled over, creating a better performing hull for that purpose, but then we are back to radical angles of heel- which are great for racing, but not so convenient as a leisure sailor.

:!: here is my guess: the extra wide transom, has allowed for a planing shoe just aft of the motor- that is a flat run from the motor aft. this section of the transom will be buried in the water- and guessing there will be none- or little deadrise or rake in that section, however the bilges/chines will have a lot of rocker built into them, so as soon as that boat heels, the hull profile undergoes a dramatic change in shape, the transom is elevated cl;ear of the waterline, and windward performance is improved.

i see a multi-chined hull profile, and this matches their situation well, they have lots of experience building epoxy/glass plywood panel boats.
you dont have the inflexibility of molds and the high costs of molds.
i think this boat is just in the concept stage, and not in the final development stage, they are gauging the market, before they spend $40 000 on design fees- thats what it costs- minimum!!!

i like how they have included the bowsprit, carbon masts are great- but very prone to failure with any compromise to the exterior surface.
they have added a bunch of features which were left out of the mac, but that comes at a $$ value- thats where the macs got it right, creating a lower entry-level price point, and allowing folks to do the mods themselves and save $$

Personally, i dont like the rig, its back to shrouds, spreaders, mast raising systems and all kinds of rigging etc high sheet pressures and high angles of heel.- but again this is just personal, there are better rigs than the Marconi, Its just that Marconis have been popularized by the racing mindset( and the handicapping system), and what the average sailor pictures as a boat.
there are a lot of sailplans that will outperform the Marconi- when comparing apples with apples.
but if you are trying to make money- a Marconi sail rigged boat is an easier sell.

i think the 75K was in GBP, will be more in $$

i agree with Sailboatmike- that the Mac users are a great resource and should be utilized.
Over the last 5 years i have started numerous threads, (some on here some on FB groups) to try and glean as much input from other Mac users as possible for my intended build, results have varied a lot, some people have just got downright mad, angry that i would even consider another boat, some have had some valid input, very few have actually commented.
but i consider all comments valuable- and try and see it from the individuals perspective. we all have an opinion , right?
i am only trying to build a boat for my own use, and not creating a commercial venture ( well at least at this stage ) and i think many heads are way better than one.
However, i cant say if the swallow guys consulted with mac owners or not.- there do seem to be a lot of similarities though!!

but here is personal opinion again, i dont think the Mac is beautiful and streamlined- but thats just an opinion- doesnt mean i hate my :macm: , or dislike Mike, 8) - its just an opinion that's all :wink:


i love seeing boats and projects like this, it means people are thinking
Roger was a pioneer- and created an excellent boat and business model.
did he get everything right, certainly not- but thats just the nature of the beast. cant please everybody all of the time i guess.

but the Mac is a great boat, and it certainly got my thoughts spinning, and allowed me to embark on my journey, to create the ultimate boat for myself.
Just that, over time we have moved away from the way that the Mac has created the power/sailing ability, the NA's working on my concept have created a hull profile that will sail a lot better, and power a lot better( on less hp), it will sail flatter and faster, with a true, highly rockered non-drag transom sailing hull, yet with a proper planing hull, and not a semi-displacement monohedron hull like the Macs.
But thats all i can say about that at this stage- its pretty hush-hush at the moment.

peace out all :)

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Re: Yet another powersailor

Post by Wayne nicol » Fri Jun 01, 2018 10:19 am

as Boat said above( we were typing at the same time), i totally agree, their intent may to build this boat, but i think they are gauging the matket, before they spend too much more money, they have spent some money on prelim work, and nice 3D renderings, but the final calculations and fine tuning is what costs the real money- believe me - i know this :)

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Re: Yet another powersailor

Post by BOAT » Fri Jun 01, 2018 10:27 am

Huh, I never thought of that - do you really think they are reading what we say here to gain marketing info? I never thought of that - but I must admit - if I were them I would be reading what we say! :P

Who better to find out what a hybrid power sailor wants than to ask a hybrid power sailor!? Your right about one thing - the very people they should ask about the best way to outfit a hybrid power sailor would be to ask people sailing the MAC M and X boats.

Oh well, if they really want my opinion on their hybrid boat "proposal" I will provide one.

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