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Upgrade already?

Posted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 4:45 pm
by disciplefk
Hi All,

I recently purchased my Mac 26M, and so far I have been having a blast (mostly). I am new to sailing in general, and I assume that I would enjoy whatever boat I happen to be on though. While I am having fun, my family is not enjoying it as much. Really just when we encounter rougher waters, and when I heel her over good. Honestly, I still get pretty nervous in both scenarios, but I can talk myself out of the heeling fear.

The rough water issue is tougher to ignore though - the Mac seems to get thrown around a lot in choppy water. I tried to venture out this past weekend, it seemed like a great day. 20+ winds and every other sail boat in the marina was out. However, as soon as I exited the safety of the marina, my son started crying from the severe rocking. Which, I don't really blame him, it was rough. Without a wide stance and concentrated effort on standing, you would easily be knocked off your feet. Thus we were forced to head back and a good day missed.

My question is will a larger (and more importantly heavier) boat (like a Hunter 30 or 33) plow through the chop better and require less cranking on the helm to keep her on course in these conditions? I want to sail more, but I also want myself and my family to be comfortable while doing so. I sail the same place all the time and have a slip, so a couple of the Mac's biggest benefits are minor pros for me. I would miss the retractable daggerboard the most and the easy single handed docking. But I would gladly sacrifice that for more comfort on rougher waters.

Thanks in advance for any advice!

Re: Upgrade already?

Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 2:06 am
by dlandersson
Generally speaking, a longer sailboat with a conventional ballast system (under the boat rather than water ballast) will handle chop better and be less tender.

Plan B. When with family (kids and wives, etc.) don't go out in chop, 20+ winds. My kids can have a lot of fun just hanging out around our boat (we have a outlet mall, a park, a children's zoo, two restaurants, etc., all within walking distance. They do get used to heeling over time - but - baby steps. :wink:

My 97 X has a ton of bells and whistles, but it sat on the hard for two years (and the PO was very motivated to sell) because he took his admiral out, the boat heeled, and she refused to ever set foot in it again. 8)

Re: Upgrade already?

Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:06 am
by disciplefk
Thanks for the reply! I had pretty much resolved just that - solo the rough stuff and only take the family in fair conditions. My only qualm is that I would like to spend a few days away from the dock once experience allows and I don't want the weather to shift to something that will scare the family. Its good to know a bigger boat will help if it happens often. Thanks again!

Re: Upgrade already?

Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 4:20 am
by kurz
to have a nice feeling on a "bigger" boat for the family... you need a really really BIG boat...

so maybe go for MacGregor70 :!: :D

Re: Upgrade already?

Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 5:54 am
by dlandersson
Wait 'till you get the bill. :P

disciplefk wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:06 am
Thanks for the reply! I had pretty much resolved just that - solo the rough stuff and only take the family in fair conditions. My only qualm is that I would like to spend a few days away from the dock once experience allows and I don't want the weather to shift to something that will scare the family. Its good to know a bigger boat will help if it happens often. Thanks again!

Re: Upgrade already?

Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 1:05 pm
by BOAT
You will never get an even ride from any trailer boat - not one.

There are trailer boats that do offer a ride that is a little bit better than the MAC but they are butt ugly slow slugs that will barely go 2 knots in 12 knots of wind. A small boat with a lot of ballast is a slug.

The MAC is the fastest cabin cruiser trailer boat I have ever sailed. It's acceleration is superior to any trailer boat I know of that has a head and galley and all that other stuff. The best riding trailer boat ever made that was not a slug was the Balboa 26 - but your are not going to tow that with your Hyundai Santa Fe - it's way too heavy, and even the trailer version of the Balboa 26 is squirrely compared to it's fixed keel version.

You really only have two choices: get used to the MAC or if you can't I highly recommend a regular boat like a Catalina 34. That is about the smallest boat with the best possible ride you can buy. Everything better than that boat will be bigger.

Re: Upgrade already?

Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 1:18 pm
by mallardjusted
How about a bigger outboard to get you out of incoming weather faster? Not sure what you have now ...

Re: Upgrade already?

Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 1:29 pm
by BOAT
I think the posters idea was that he wanted to be able to sail travel in sloppy seas. It is possible - we do it all the time - but it's not comfortable. It is comfortable in a Cat 34 or pretty much any other boat larger than that, but there is no trailer boat that is comfortable in sloppy sea.

Re: Upgrade already?

Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 3:54 pm
by Tomfoolery
Nor'Sea 27, but that's a heavy boat. Not something to tow with your 4Runner.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_fu44SFNVE

My Hunter 340 was pretty good in choppy conditions. Stuff that would keep me busy in my Mac, mostly holding on. But it was around 12,000 lb and 12 ft beam with a wing keel (fin would have been better) with a 56 ft bridge clearance. And ten times the money. :|

Re: Upgrade already?

Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 4:37 pm
by BOAT
Balboa 26 will blow the doors off a norsea 27 in 12 knot wind but the norsea is a a lot more comfortable in chop.

Launching that norsea is ridiculous - in the video you can see that the boat was so heavy the guy holding the forward dock line had to let it go because it was going to pull him and the railing into the water - then when they grabbed the aft dock line the boat of course pitched away from the dock shooting the bow out into the middle of the ramp - if that happened at my ramp that bow would have been pitching out right into another dock on the other side where a few expensive whalers would have been crushed -

no thanks

Re: Upgrade already?

Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 7:22 pm
by disciplefk
Yeah, I was actually looking at a Beneteau 331 or a Hunter 33. The budget doesn't scare me as much as the rockin'! I do love the mac, especially for introducing me to sailing and good times in fair weather with the family.

I have never been one for power boating, so the outboard advantage for me is really just the ease of maintenance. I don't need to trailer it either, I will be at a slip in Lake Erie indefinitely. It is good to know that a 11000lbs boat will make a difference. I have no hate or regrets on :macm: , just looking forward to a happy wife and family when a stiffer breeze comes along :)

Re: Upgrade already?

Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 7:33 pm
by BOAT
The Beneteau 331 is a lot mo comfortable under sail but it's a real rockin roller under anchor. The Hunter 33 is a little more stable at anchor but it's not as fast as the B.

Re: Upgrade already?

Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:31 am
by Tomfoolery
BOAT wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 7:33 pm
The Hunter 33 is a little more stable at anchor but it's not as fast as the B.
Speaking of stability at anchor, the H340 was terrible in waves and wakes at anchor or at the dock. My biggest gripe with it. The hull shape at the transom was wide with a very shallow rise, which continued right out of the water. The gold VC17 bottom paint is the wetted area at rest in the image below.

Image

Imagine slapping your hand in the swimming pool to launch a bunch of water at your big sister (that's what little boys do, after all :P ). The H340 hull does the same thing with just a little vertical movement, which results in a very sudden stop with loud pounding on every wave or wake with water shooting out the back. With the owner's cabin in the stern, it's impossible to sleep back there in any kind of rough, and for that matter it's quite loud everywhere below decks.

As nice as that big fat-bottomed sugar scoop transom and swim platform were, next keelboat will have a more conventional transom with or without swim platform.

Image

Oh, and that arch with the traveler on it is the bee's knees. Say what you want about Hunters, but having that rigging up and out of the way was great. Early ones had FRP arches, but after a couple of years they switched to a welded SS tubular arch. Mine was basically a station wagon, and that was just fine with me. It could do hull speed in the right conditions with that monster main sail on the B&R rig, but in-mast furling would have been reallllllly nice to have since I mostly sail single-handed.

Image

Re: Upgrade already?

Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:52 am
by BOAT
The transom on that boat does look really slap happy noisy - I was unaware that the hunter 34 was like that - my brothers Hunter 34 did not have that.

You can ask masreb about the Beneteau - he says the rolling at anchor is intolerable. The boats are SOOO wide and the interiors are more like apartments than boats so sitting in the main salon is like riding a see saw.

I really doubt your Hunter 34 had THAT problem - I can see the issue with that slap happy transom not having enough hull under the water but the linear buttock line has too many conversions at the aft. The noisiest part of a boat is always where the most buttock lines meet the surface. It does appear there is a flat spot there under the aft section.

Roger pointed that out in the X boat design and claimed he purposely squared off the port and starboard transom sides on the next model M where they met the water to spread out the buttock lines. At least in Rogers case he had a good reason for ending up with a bad convergence under the aft section: He was trying to put a power boat hull on the aft part of a sailboat! In Hunters case - I see no reason why they would do it - it's not a power sailor - it makes no sense.

Re: Upgrade already?

Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:21 am
by Tomfoolery
BOAT wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:52 am
The transom on that boat does look really slap happy noisy - I was unaware that the hunter 34 was like that - my brothers Hunter 34 did not have that.
Earlier 34's had a more conventional transom/hull exit. No slapping. The second picture is an older 34, with a more conventional (and quieter) exit.

BOAT wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:52 am
You can ask masreb about the Beneteau - he says the rolling at anchor is intolerable. The boats are SOOO wide and the interiors are more like apartments than boats so sitting in the main salon is like riding a see saw.

I really doubt your Hunter 34 had THAT problem - I can see the issue with that slap happy transom not having enough hull under the water but the linear buttock line has too many conversions at the aft. The noisiest part of a boat is always where the most buttock lines meet the surface. It does appear there is a flat spot there under the aft section.
Yeah, rolling was never the issue unless it was beam-to, like at a marina I used the first year I had it. That marina was right next to a fairway with a 25 mph speed limit, and the 200 ft rule meant nothing. I would have been nice if they installed a floating breakwater, which they wanted to do, but authorities put the kibosh on that since he wanted to dock boats on it to bring in money to pay for it. :(
BOAT wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:52 am
Roger pointed that out in the X boat design and claimed he purposely squared off the port and starboard transom sides on the next model M where they met the water to spread out the buttock lines. At least in Rogers case he had a good reason for ending up with a bad convergence under the aft section: He was trying to put a power boat hull on the aft part of a sailboat! In Hunters case - I see no reason why they would do it - it's not a power sailor - it makes no sense.
They did it for the giant sugar scoop transom/swim platform.


Image
(my boat right after I sold it :cry: )

Propane locker was on the port side, don't remember what's in the locker on the starboard side (macerator, I think), and the swim ladder was in the middle, telescoped short and folded flat. A nice arrangement for sure, but the compromises weren't worth it, IMO.