Standard Jib vs 150 Genoa

[ESPERANZA]

I'm new to sailing as this was my first season with my 97'X.
I'm using a standard jib on my furler. My questions is, what kind of improved performance could I get from a Genoa? Under normal wind conditions of course...
Dik...

[Miquel]

I changed from the standard jib to the genoa this past summer, as we were going to sail in the Mediterranean, where winds are lighter than here in the North Sea. At our return, I have left our 26X with the genoa, and I think it will remain in the roller for next season also.

Generally speaking, I have got 1 - 2 knots more in Force 2 to 3, but I have lost about 20 in closing to the wind. I also have to begin reefing earlier; I find that Force 4 (about 15 knots wind) is too much for the full main + genoa (it was the limit for the jib + main).

I hope it helps. Fair winds,

Miquel.
Culzean.

[Jeff S]

I have a 100 Jib also and plan to get a Genoa for next season. 20 degrees difference in pointing is more than I thought, do others experience similar pointing performance?

Jeff S

[Ken Smith]

What are normal wind conditions? I was out the other day with 15- 18 mph winds and I was with full main and the 150 genoa on the roller furler. I had the genoa reefed some, 1/2 to 2/3 in, and was able to get good speed as well as direction to the wind. I had my compas and was able to tack 70 degrees onto a new course. Speed was bad but my intention was to see how close to the wind I could get. This reguired me to pay attention to sailing. The rest of the day my son 3 yo reguired my attention.
Ken

[Dan B]

So many factors affect how well your boat will point to say -

- Centerboard adjustment
- Rig tightness
- Entry angle of mainsail
- Sheeting angle of jib/genoa sheet
- Strength of wind
- etc.

In "best" conditions (and still wanting to maintain a decent compromise between speed and distance gained upwind) I think 45 degrees offwind is very good.

[Miquel]

With the jib, and after fine tuning the rig, we were able to do tacks of 80, this is to say, 4O off the wind. With the genoa, and being the first season I use it, we have not been able to tack at less than 100 - 105 (this is to say, 50 off the wind) in any wind condition. Perhaps it can be improved, but my feeling is that with the genoa I will never arrive to point as far as with the jib.

It happens the same in other boats: the new Beneteau Oceanis 373 tacks at 120; at least, tha is what it came out of the trial done by a French magazine

Fair winds,

Miquel
Culzean.

[Moe]

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the reason the genoa doesn't point as well, even a genoa roller-furled to the same size as a standard jib, is that the sheets are led outside the shrouds to the aft tracks?

Would it be as bad if the sheets were led to the forward tracks, or do they not extend aft enough to get a good angle on a roller-furled genoa?

I don't think I'd want a genoa unless we had winches mounted aft. The genoa sheets running from the aft tracks to the forward winches cut across the cockpit seating.

As you all know, we're pretty new at this, but I think we're sticking with the standard jib for now, and may get a spinnaker later for light winds.
--
Moe

[Miquel]

I have tried the genoa rolled to the size of a jib, and using the foretracks (the ones used for the jib). The performance was not the same than wth the jib, and some better than with the full genoa. I thought the reason was the shape of the sail: a rolled genoa has not the same shape than a jib.

Fair winds,

Miquel.
Culzean.

[Dan B]

I too have experimented with sheeting a partially furled genoa onto the cabin-top tracks to get a tighter sheeting angle when sailing upwind. It did not work very well. It failed to generate much power.

As the genoa is furled it is raised higher on the forestay and the shape becomes very bad. With a jib - the shape is much better and it stays much lower - so you generate more power.

[Bill at BOATS 4 SAIL]

The only thing I use my sheet winches for is to tighten up my hammock on the foredeck. They make too much noise. When I whant to tighten up my headsail, I head towards the wind to take the pressure off and sheet it in.
I sell the sails sold by MacGregor. Genoa (list price of $390) for $330, Genoa Sheets and Blocks ($69) for $60, Spinnaker, with sheets ($475) for $400. These prices include shipping.
I will also be selling the new larger Spinnaker, at a discount, when it becomes available. If you are thinking of buying a Spinnaker, you might want to wait and see what it's like.

[Jeff Ritsema]

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the reason the genoa doesn't point as well, even a genoa roller-furled to the same size as a standard jib, is that the sheets are led outside the shrouds to the aft tracks?

Would it be as bad if the sheets were led to the forward tracks, or do they not extend aft enough to get a good angle on a roller-furled genoa?

I don't think I'd want a genoa unless we had winches mounted aft. The genoa sheets running from the aft tracks to the forward winches cut across the cockpit seating.

As you all know, we're pretty new at this, but I think we're sticking with the standard jib for now, and may get a spinnaker later for light winds.
--
Moe

For what it's worth, I wanted a larger furling headsail on my Mast 28, which is set up similarly to the Mac, having cabintop winches. The sheeting angle was poor enough to promp my adding 2 Anderson self tailing winches aft (even with the helmsman's position). This has worked out very well. I get good sail shape from a 150 genoa, can point very well for a centerboard boat (compared very favorably with my previous traditional keeled C&C), and perhaps most important, I can reach both jib sheets to either side while seated at the helm, making coming through the wind on a tack or jibe much easier. One of the best sailing add-ons I made. Selftailing winches are also to important when single-handling like I do. The only thing to watch for is that the winches are mounted high enough to allow for only a slight drop from the sheet leads on the genoa track. My initial installation is a little too low, which leads to "overwraps" on the winch drum. I have to raise the winches 1-2" to compensate for that. Best if the sheet is either level with the winch or has to rise slightly to the winch, not decend to the winch as in my case. Hope this is of help.

[dclark]

I've seen significant speed differances with my Genoa when side by side with an X using a Jib. On a reach or higher into the wind, with enoug wind speed (>20kts, maybe?) that you'll need to roll it back some. Otherwise too much heel and weather helm. Is it worth it? YES (IMO of course).

With the Genoa fully open, I can still point reasonable well but may have to crank it in as tight as I can (the sail snug against the shrouds). But Moe is absolutely correct...Once you roll it back to 100% or less, the sheets will become restricted by the shrouds. I'd imagine at that point you would do better to re-run the sheets through the jib blocks. But I've never done that...I mean if I'm to that point (sailing close to the wind with speeds great enough to cause me to roll it back to jib size or smaller), then moving that stuff around is the last thing I want to do.

Before buying the stock Doyle Genoa, get an quote from cruising direct sails (do a yahoo search). You'll be glad you did. Also there is nothing that says you have to use a 150%. I went with a 140%.

[Tom Spohn]

IMO the X really benefits from the 150 genoa; whereas the M is happy with a 100% Jib. My experience with a 150 equiped X is the same as Miguel's. You will ultimately go faster if you fall off a bit rather than pointing too close. I used to worry about the lack of pointing ability until, two years in a row, sailing in the "Not quite a race" at the BWY rendezvous, it was clear that the boats with 150 gennys had to fall off and tack back to the mark more than the boats with jibs, but the genny equiped boats were going enough faster that the time to the mark was about the same or even faster for the genny equiped boats. I found sailing around a set course with both X's and M's with and without gennys to be very instructive.

Like Bill, I usually didn't use the winch very much which required ratcheting due to interference from the dodger. I found the sail much easier to handle when I put longer, larger diameter sheets on the sail.

[Frank C]

Well, as another "skip" on this broken record ... I agree completely with Miquel's experience. My 26x with Genoa tacks across 100 to 110 degrees, and cannot go closer, regardless of wind conditions. With the factory-standard jib it can tack across 90.

However, reading here makes me question the range of wind conditions. In areas of lighter winds, the Genoa should out-perform a jib. However, when winds are consistently above 16-18 knots, it's much more fun to sail with the jib. The boat has better balance, heels less and is much faster under sail.

I am lucky enough to try it both ways, steady winter winds of 10 knots and steady summer winds of 20 knots. It's nice to just slip quietly along under Genoa in 10 knots of wind - the boat can self-steer and I almost fell asleep one day. But I most enjoy the days that are 'scaped with whitecaps, some waves to pound thru and spray across the bow. That's FUN! - as long as I've changed to the jib, and not fighting the Genny.

[Bill at BOATS 4 SAIL]

dclark - Move your headsail sheets on the unloaded side. Tack. Move your other set of sheets forward (or aft).