Macgregor Limits

[corkscrew]

Tryed searching for it, but not sure the search terms. Trying to get an ida of safe operating limits for the mac with regards to people. I usually only sail with 4 adults and maybe 1 child.......is there a number or pound limit?

[technicalman]

Look under "Resources" along the top of the website. This is from the Mac26M_manual_2003.pdf

When the ballast if full:
No mor ethan 6 persons, 940 pounds

When the ballast is empty:
No more than 4 person, or 640 pounds
all sails removed, engine power only
no one on the cabin or foredeck
waves less than 1 foot.
operte where water is warm and rescue is likely.
never operate the boat with a partially filled tank.

Here's a formula i learned from the us coast guard auxiliary:
(lengh X width) / 15 = number of passengers on a boat.
(25.5 X /15 = 13.6 Ouch! Trust the manufacturer's manual, not this formula!

[Navyvet]

I heard the same formula but it was 20 not 15 for sail boats 15 was for power boats and that would be the absolute max.

[Night Sailor]

I think the factory recommendations are very reasonalble, though very conservative considering what is possible under the best of conditions. The factory caution is well advised given the wide range of owner's experience, seaworthiness of individual boats and weather conditons possible.

I once had 11 full sized adults in addtion to myself on a V-222 in a 20 knot wind with gust to 30 using stock jib and reefed mainsail on a lake in Tx. None would go below becaues of their fear of sailboats, so I had them sit all around the deck to balance the weight, and we sailed safely back to dock with only about 18" freeboard. Their power boat stranded them on an island after a picnic, and they could not signal anyone (good old days before cellphones) but I happened to be sailing by and saw their problem. Some called it a rescue, I just called it a grand adventure. It's just natural to help someone in trouble if you think you have your own situation under control. And, sometimes Lady Luck is a crew mate. Sometimes not.

[PatrickS]

Not sure what formula was used, but after going through the European CE certification process, the post-construction assessment for my 2001 X specifies max 8 persons for Category D use and max 6 persons for Category C use, which seems spot-on to me.

The CE category descriptions are:

A: OCEAN -- Designed for extended voyages where condition may exceed wind
force 8 (Beaufort scale) and wave height of 4 m (13 ft)

B; OFFSHORE -- Designed for offshore where conditions up to, and including,
wind force 8 and wave height up to, and including, 4 m (13 ft)

C: INSHORE -- Designed for voyages in coastal waters, large bays. estuaries,
lakes and river where condition up to, and including wind force 6 and wave
height up to 2 m (6 ft 6 in)

D: SHELTERED WATER-- Designed for small lakes, river and canals up to wind
force 4 and wave height up to 0.5 m (1 ft 6 in)

[mikelinmon]

Hi,

EU cert is cat "C" for inshore waters which means coastal which means?? Is coastal inshore? What is the formula? Does it have anything to do with protecting EU products. Note that the Mac trailer steel or aluminum is not EU specs, the wires are made somewhere else, tires also, even the wheels are "not made in EU countries" Just a lame thought, could be the cat C has nothing to do with EU, just their idea of safety, did we get points because our boat can't sink? Did we? Know there is much more to it than that, much more, just I'd bump every boat back one letter that didn't have positive floatation! Our coastal "C" looks better now that almost all of the "B" are in with us "C"!
Mostly, just how do they figure it out, I sure would not leave out "will it sink?"
Mike Inmon

[Night Sailor]

Mike has two points. One, regulatory bodies usually only look only at boats structures and plans. Measure, run formulas, make a quantitative decision. That's helpful, but not the complete picture. The "does it sink" question would certainly change a safety rating if common sense were applied. And two, a rating also should it seems to me to consider the years of experience, skills or seamanship of the skippers on a particular kind of boat.

That said, I haven't seen the results of any test where a Mac of any design or year was tested for floating with a full load of maximum size motor, fuel, water, food, and typical crusing gear with typical family of three or four aboard during the test. An empty boat with no motor might float nicely at the dock, but real conditions?

I've added enough foam floatation to my X in the aft sections to offset the weight of the Merc 50 and fuel. That might help keep the boat somewhat level, but I hope I don't have to find out.

[waternwaves]

Night


2000 lbs of people on deck and only a 450 lb keel........

you my friend, have hanging ones of steel......

grand adventure..... now that is an understatement.....for me that would have been a lesson in swimming probably.

[PatrickS]

Hi,

EU cert is cat "C" for inshore waters which means coastal which means?? Is coastal inshore? What is the formula?

The label 'INSHORE' seems a bit of a misnomer. The full description should be clear, and yes, category C is coastal. The part that is best to focus on is the max wind strength and wave height for each category, rather than *where* you might encounter those conditions. The locations mentioned seem to just reflect the most typical cases.

Does it have anything to do with protecting EU products.

IMO, yes, much, if not most, of the CE certification BS is about market protection, not consumer protection. I had a wonderful Honda 4stroke on my X which is sold in Finland, same model, bolt for bolt, confirmed by Honda, but they refused to give a Certificat of Conformance for mine because of market divisions. I.e. because it was originally sold in the US, it was not "conformant" with EU regulations. That about says it all.

Note that the Mac trailer steel or aluminum is not EU specs, the wires are made somewhere else, tires also, even the wheels are "not made in EU countries"

Yep. It sucks. My trailer was worthless here. Would have had to change the axel, brakes, hitch, lights, i.e. everything but the frame. So now it sits behind a barn just wasting away... (I may be able to sell it as a marina trailer, but not for much)

Just a lame thought, could be the cat C has nothing to do with EU, just their idea of safety, did we get points because our boat can't sink? Did we? Know there is much more to it than that, much more, just I'd bump every boat back one letter that didn't have positive floatation! Our coastal "C" looks better now that almost all of the "B" are in with us "C"!
Mostly, just how do they figure it out, I sure would not leave out "will it sink?"
Mike Inmon

I don't know the history of the categories, but the categories themselves, based on max wind speed and wave height, seem reasonable for communicating to owners what the capabilities of the boat are. Note that's not a nod to the CE certification process itself, just the categorization. Granted, manufacturers are able to, and usually do, provide such information anyway, but having a standardized system is useful. At a recent boat show, it was very easy to focus on e.g. category A boats, as they were clearly marked, and thus not have to wonder/ask about whether it would be considered suitable for a circumnavigation, etc.

And of course, alot of what is in the CE certification for boats is mirrored by similar regulations in the US, e.g. declaration of passenger/weight capacity, etc. so it's not all without value.

But there's *alot* of politics and market protection rolled in, IMO and without it, the process would be alot easier, clearer, and serve the actual consumer rather than the manufacturers.

As for positive flotation, I don't think positive floatation would affect categorization at all, since the categorization is more about the strength/capability of the boat, and one could argue that, while positive flotation alleviates the need for e.g. a liferaft, it doesn't help the boat deal with 20 foot breaking waves in a gale.

[bastonjock]

Patrick,it sounds like you are finding out about the joys of direct importing,i looked into it,but by the time i paid the cost of EU certification,bought a new trailer,paid import tax and Value added tax,even when the pound was 2 to a dollar,the financial advantages wore a bit thin.

The C.E ceritification came about after the Fastnet race(try reading "left for dead") in which a lot of people lost their lives,there was an enquiery and as a result,all boats manufactured after a certain date,had to meet certain standards in their design,The rule applys to all boats regardless where they are manufactured,the idea being that you set out to sea in a boat capable of dealing with the weather and not a floating coffin, there are a lot of small boat manufacturers and diy jobs about.

The rules regarding trailers are not standardised accross europe,for example,if you but a new Odin your trailer meets European mainland standards but the same trailer is illegal in the UK,so if you buy an Odin you need to spend another$10,000 on a trailer and to top it off there are only 2 4x4s capable of towing it legally.

!	kmclemore:
	Political commentary removed.

on the subject of importing,just try to import a new mac into Europe,try buying it directly from California,the answer is that you cant,all boats improrted into the UK have to go through a certain Miss macgregors company, she lives in Cornwall (UK) now thats my idea of a protected market

The catagory C that is awarded to the mac,means that its 12 miles off shore max,and force 6 thats the Limit,you can of course go past those limits but your insurance tends to run out.If you use it on the rivers and canals you have to do the boat saftery scheme certificate,once again this is to weed out the floating coffins.

[J.Teixeira]

I don't understand why...

!	kmcemore:
	Frankly, I don't either, but this isn't the place to discuss that. Political commentary removed. Please step into the Back Room where you will have the freedom to discuss this to your hearts content.

[kmclemore]

!	kmclemore:
	WARNING: We are now treading into political discussions, and that does NOT belong in the front room. NOT EVER. Please keep this discussion about facts, information and direct experiences related to the topic at hand... and move the political bit to the Back Room in the Pub.... otherwise the thread gets killed. Sorry, but that's the rules.

[J.Teixeira]

When I wright on this forum I do it bi parts and I try to check the spell and dictionary.

I was talking about boats and prices to show that I believe the problem is the market not the rules.

I was going to show that European class C/4 is fine for a Mac...

Mi text was destroyed before finished...

but it's OK...

Never mind...

I understand.

Jose

[kmclemore]

!	kmclemore:
	Jose, your previous text has been PM'd to you. I'm sorry, but we really don't allow that kind of potentially controversial content in the front room (i.e. talking about "rights, unions, welfare, FREEDOM, DEMOCRACY"). We are not censoring - you are welcome to discuss that at your leisure in the back room - just not out front where many of us dislike political arguments with our sailing.

[PatrickS]

Patrick,it sounds like you are finding out about the joys of direct importing,i looked into it,but by the time i paid the cost of EU certification,bought a new trailer,paid import tax and Value added tax,even when the pound was 2 to a dollar,the financial advantages wore a bit thin.

The only reason I did it (and would seriously consider not doing it again, given the insanity of the process) was that I was able to take the boat tax free and got a "deal" on the CE certification, so in the end, I actually ended up saving alot of money. It also has a higher resale value in Scandinavia than in the UK, so all in all, I'm satisfied with my decision. But it's definitely not for the faint of heart.