Doyle Cradle Cover + Lazy Jacks

[jmiker]

Hi everyone,

I am a new member of this most excellent forum, and a new owner of a 2002 26X, although I have been sailing for years and own an open 18' Nacra catamaran, and a Macgregor 22 (in addition to the 26x). Thank you to all the participants of the forum -- it is a superb resource and a great source of entertainment as well.

My dear 'Admiral' is a bit timid on water. For that reason, I want to equip the new Mac (to be renamed "Wind Lass"), in such a manner that it can most easily be sailed with reduced responsibilities for crew. Wind Lass is already equipped with the CDI furler and with the main halyard ran to the cockpit. I am looking for other alterations that might reduce work and unwelcome 'excitement' for the crew.

One item that might help is the Doyle cradle cover and lazy jacks, sold by Kelly Hanson Marine Does anyone in the forum have experience or knowledge about the system? What is your impression of the system? Is it a useful upgrade? What happens to the cover when the mailsail is up? Does the cover interfere with sail performance or use of the cockpit?

Many thanks in advance,
Mike

[The Mutt]

I've had no experience with them myself, I am still trying to decide between a sail cradle and lazy jacks for our 1997 .

Here's some links to the mods section

lazy jacks http://macgregorsailors.com/modt/index.php?view=298
reefing http://macgregorsailors.com/modt/index.php?viewimg=42
sail cradle http://macgregorsailors.com/modt/index.php?view=917

Glenn

[extreem]

I installed the Doyle system from KH this last season. I have used it alot over the summer. My thoughts are as follows:

Pros
-When the main is lowered, it is covered by the integrated cover.
-There is no fumbling with ties to secure the sail as the lazy jacks keep the sail tidy.
-The whole system looks really nice because the sail does not fall all over the boom and hang off of the sides.
-There are no interferences while sailing. I found that the best way to use this is to ease the lazy jacks prior to hoisting sail to the point that the top of the cover is about even with the top of the boom. This gives enough clearance for the sail within the lazy jacks and doesn't interfere with sail shape. Once the sail is lowered onto the boom, the lazy jacks are then pulled tight which pulls the cover up and over the sail.

Cons
-I bought the system with the thoughts that I could raise and lower the main from the cockpit. This is just not a reality as the main on the macgregor is not heavy enough to fall on its own, and the boom is not wide enough to allow proper clearance. I have been thinking of some mods to enable this, I might get to it this winter. The mods I think will improve the system are a downhaul for the main and some sort of spreader for the cover to increase the space for the sail to fall into the cover.
-There are a couple of extra steps involved with raising and lowering the main because of the lazy jacks, easing before raising and tightening when lowered, but this is offset by the fact that you don't need to secure and cover the sail.
-A reefing system should be installed when installing the cover. The cover has slots cut to allow a reefing line to pass through, but using the manual reef method is difficult.
-The instructions are clear as to where to mount the hardware, but they really leave alot of the installation to the imagination. The drawings for install are hand sketches. Some good photos would be a big help.


Overall I am happy with the system, but there was a learning curve for using the system. Again the instructions are useless as to how to use the system. I guess you should just know these things. After a couple of mods, I think I can make the system work like I want it to.

[Mistral]

I have just ordered a new main sail (C2000) and the Doyle Cradle Cover and Lazy Jacks from KHE. Hopefully it will arrive here before spring starts.
Thanks for the Pro's and Con's of using it. It will be a help when I install it.

What about some extra weight on top of the main sail to make it drop easier when lowering?

Dirk

[The Mutt]

What about some extra weight on top of the main sail to make it drop easier when lowering?

Dirk

Why not add a down haul line connecting the mainsail head to a block at the mast base then lead to the cockpit.

Glenn

[Duane Dunn, Allegro]

A down haul is a solution to part of your problem. Just run a light line from the headboard down to the mast base. Unfortunately it will not solve the bigger flaw in these systems. The Mac boom is so narrow that the slot between the tightened lazyjacks is too narrow and the sail battens constantly hang up as you lower the main, even with a down haul line.

I've talked with Todd at BWY about this and they have tried many variations over the years but have never hit on a reliable lazyjack system. He recommended against my even trying.

There is an alternate system that does work however, and I think it could easily be combined with a top opening sail cover like the Doyle.

BWY now is selling M mains modified for a "Dutchman" system. In this system there are two lines that run from the boom up to the topping lift perpendicular to the boom. As they go up the weave through grommets installed in the sail every 2' or so. BWY also installs a down haul as part of the system. I have operated this system from the cockpit and it works great, no hangups at all. Simply tighten the toping lift to put tension on the dutchman lines, release the main halyard, and then pull on the down haul. Because there is no narrow slot, there is nothing for the sail to hang up on as it is lowered. The sail ends up neatly flaked on the boom and with the vertical lines passing through it even without the sail cover it cannot fall off the boom. You can motor at speed without the sail cover and the unsecured sail goes nowhere.

BWY sells a standard bottom opening sail cover with slots for the dutchman lines, but I see no reason a top opening one could not be designed.

The bad thing at this point is they only sell it for the M main, not the X.

[ALX357]

I found these Mods esential to make the boat more user friendly .....

Passive ballast vent hosed to anchor locker drain.
You do not have to deal with opening and closing the ballast vent each time, and the system makes the boat safer, since water cannot ever enter the cabin or bilges from the ballast tank

Bungee rudder hold-down lines.
Lets the rudders kick up momentarily if you run over a log, shallow obstruction, grounding, etc. but they reset again when clear.

Solar charged battery powered cabin vents.

Quick push on concentric connectors for fuel line(s) to tanks.

Two piece clear or smoked acrylic, or lexan etc. companionway board, additional alternate to standard gelcoated one. Also a screen you can use to stop bugs but let air pass, these will improve the liveability inside the cabin and reduce the claustrophobia when the hatches need to be shut.
Huge difference in releiving claustrophobia of closed cabin when overnightin, if

Curtains

[c130king]

I don't have the Doyle Cradle but I do have Lazy Jacks and a "haul down" (for lack of a better term...or is there one?). It is tied around the top most sail slug and when time to lower I just pull the "haul down" which is led to the cockpit. Never have to leave the cockpit.

In fact my halyard is 70' long. Tied to the head board up to the turning block at the top of the mast then down to the deck and through a couple of turning blocks back to the cockpit where it turns around and runs through more turning blocks back to the mast and then up to the top most sail slug. Works great...pull one way and hauls the main up and pull the other way it hauls the main down.

My simple Lazy Jacks work great to catch the main. I don't have to tie it up if I don't want to...it will sit in the LJ's just fine.

Good Luck,
Jim

[jmiker]

Thanks for sharing your experiences, Extreem .. a very thoughtful and thorough post, and one to which I've given considerable thought. The key problem with the lazy jacks and cradle cover is clearly the width of the 'jacks' at the boom. Some sort of spreader system (as you suggest) might solve the problem.

Have you any thoughts to the construction of the spreader(s)?

One of my thoughts has been to fasten some sort of springy material to the inside of the cradle cover, near the mounting/entry of each Lazy Jack line. When the jacks are eased, those 'battens' would hold the lines and cover away from the boom allowing clearance for sail raising/lowering; but when the jacks are tightened, the 'battens' would bend tightly around the boom and allow the cover to close. Perhaps some sort of lightweight sail battens (I'm thinking Laser or some such), or perhaps some curved plastic material might work for the 'springy material'

My other thought is to affix small hinged arms to the bottom of the boom and inside of the cradle cover. The result would be similar to the 'batten' idea above: when the jacks are tightened, the hinged arms would pivot to a near-vertical position, allowing the cover to close. When the jacks are eased, the arms would swing down to a near-horizontal position, thus holding the cover open wide enough to allow room for sail lowering/raising.

My greatest concern of these methods is that it would tend to make the boom/cover bulky when the jacks are raised. Would that extra width cause problems?

Is it practical to tighten the jacks after the sail is raised? With the jacks tightened, does the cradle cover conform to the shape of the sail foot fairly well? The air disturbance caused by non-conformity might be partially offset by some encouragement of laminar flow by the cover material which would create a fairly smooth transition between boom and sail foot.

Thanks again!
Mike

[extreem]

Have you any thoughts to the construction of the spreader(s)?

One of my thoughts has been to fasten some sort of springy material to the inside of the cradle cover, near the mounting/entry of each Lazy Jack line. When the jacks are eased, those 'battens' would hold the lines and cover away from the boom allowing clearance for sail raising/lowering; but when the jacks are tightened, the 'battens' would bend tightly around the boom and allow the cover to close. Perhaps some sort of lightweight sail battens (I'm thinking Laser or some such), or perhaps some curved plastic material might work for the 'springy material'

My other thought is to affix small hinged arms to the bottom of the boom and inside of the cradle cover. The result would be similar to the 'batten' idea above: when the jacks are tightened, the hinged arms would pivot to a near-vertical position, allowing the cover to close. When the jacks are eased, the arms would swing down to a near-horizontal position, thus holding the cover open wide enough to allow room for sail lowering/raising.

My thoughts on this are similar to yours, I was thinking maybe a carbon fiber or fiberglass tent pole. these can be found fairly cheap and in many sizes. There would need to be some way to mount this to the boom at the appropriate angle to allow the cover to operate corectly. I thought I would experiment with this some over the winter. I will post anything I come up with.

I sail with the lazy jacks eased, because the sail shape is affected by the lines if they are tight. As for performance decreases caused by the cover, I think they would be negligible. I installed the C2000 main and genoa sails from KH at the same time I installed the Doyle cover and I saw a night and day difference in the sailing performance over the original sails. The sails made a huge improvement. This is not to say you couldn't sqeeze an extra 0.1 knot of speed out of it, but for cruising, any performance drop you would see is minimal. Unless you are racing I wouldn't be concerned. Then again if you were racing then you wouldn't be adding any extras to the mast or boom. The difference is probably similar to the jib mounted on a furler.

[TrueNorth]

Based on the Doyle installation instructions (available on-line) we sewed our own Cradle Cover, using same premium Sunbrella that Doyle uses to the same specs. I am addressing the spreader problem - using old light weight hacksaw blades, with the edge taped off with Gorilla Tape. Provides springy material that works well.

We conservatively saved $450 dollars. My wife sewed it with a 1950 Singer sewing machine- yes the old back antique-ie looking ones. You will be told that only a canvas shop can sew sunbrella, but this is not the case.

The cover, whether bought or made solves several problems, including keeping the reefing lines in check, improved visibility with sail on top of boom, as well as integrated lazyjacks plus ease of on zipper closure.

[darekluczak]

I've purchased my Doyle Lazy jack/cover system from KH the end of last season and installed it this year.
I totally agree with extreem with what he pointed out.
I had reefing line installed few years back and it worked really nice but its performance is slightly degraded by the Cover now.
If it comes to sail performance I found that my main lost it original shape and it is more baloney simply because the foot of it is held at front and back of the boom.
When I first got the cover I thought it was missing some way to slide a lower edge of main into some kind of a channel that would hold it like the boom, but after few calls to KH (no support there) and Doyle sail makers I learned that is the way to go.
Construction of the cradle is nice and professional, and it looks pretty cool, but as it was said before lazy jacks are more of pain that is help, battens are constantly getting hung up ( I found that it works better when you go as fast as you can into the wind using your motor). Downhaul is on my To Do list for the next season for sure.
Over all product is expansive and disappointing as far manuals, performance goes and I would NOT recommend it for any Mac owners other than for looks.

[The Mutt]

.... using old light weight hacksaw blades, with the edge taped off with Gorilla Tape. Provides springy material that works well.

So you don't have to worry about rust happening to the hacksaw blades and staining the cover and sail, how about making sleaves to insert lengths of old fishing rod, they have good flex characteristics closer to the tip.

Glenn

[jbousquin]

Not having Sumner and Ruth's considerable talent to build one myself (http://www.macgregor26x.com/forum/viewt ... =8&t=16479), I'm wondering if you can modify the Doyle Cradle Cover to feed into the slot on the boom so that you wouldn't have to have a loose fitted main using it.

I saw a system that madguy made that let the his cover feed into the boom slot, awith the main's bolt-rope holding it into place once inside the groove. In this diagram, it's where "Fold 1" is:

http://i973.photobucket.com/albums/ae21 ... _00000.jpg

I'm wondering if you could modify the Doyle Cradle Cover so that the bottom of it feeds into the boom groove around the main's bolt rope to hold it in place. Seems a lot better than having a loose-fitted main.

Thanks,

Joe

[restless]

we made our stack pack at home.. a little challenging but no big deal. A 1950 singer too
A real must for single handed sailing, like if the admiral goes into frozen shock!
a slug gate is cool too. I must get round to writing up the latest mods.
I've got a load of mods here: http://www.ironengineer.com/mac/home/index.htm