Single Line Reefing vs the 26M's rotating mast

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magnetic
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Single Line Reefing vs the 26M's rotating mast

Post by magnetic »

back in the saddle and tonight I managed to install the new 105Ah AGM battery, so the cabin lights are back on! Next step on Wednesday is to get the sparky to connect the shorepower to newly-sourced RCD, 240v Distribution Panel and Galvanic Isolator.

And then the big one. I had a good look at the foot of the mast this evening and yes, I can see how a revolving cleat like the Harken 140/150 could work, and I can also see how the alternative proposition of a couple of turning blocks pinned to the two mast-raising holes forward of the foot could also work (for the Halyards*) at least. And then I had a heart attack when I thought about the single-line reefing (and, for that matter, leading the vang back to the cockpit). :x

Put bluntly, if I install single-line reefing, run the vang back and/or use the forward mounting points for the Halyard blocks, is this likely to lock up the mast and prevent it from rotating? And is that a "bad thing"?

I have to confess to not being entirely convinced about how useful the rotating mast is; is the idea that it is of greatest use in light winds (in which case keeping the reefing lines slack might free up some movement) or does it's value really count when the breeze picks up? if the latter, then as soon as there is any tension in the first reefing line, things would lock up and performance might be expected to suffer accordingly.

Overall, what with vang, 2 halyards* and 3 reefing lines I am looking at at least 6 lines coming back off the mast, added to which I have the furling line and the daggerboard to contend with, suggesting that muliple sheave deck-organisers and at least quadruple clutches are going to be necessary - the problem being that the only flat place to mount these on the :macm: in front of the winch is quite far forward and an inch or more below it. This endeavour therefore has all the makings of a sit-down-and-plan-it-thoroughly project rather than a casual Sunday afternoon jaunt.

Finally, the Harken 16ST's look like they will fit nicely just behind the Genoa tracks, but the pig is that this will restrict get-on-board access over the Port quarter. having grown used to using the shrouds to board the Beneteau, or clambering over the sugar scoop stern on a number of other yachts, i have only just got used to crouching down beneath the bimini just in front of the pushpit, and this is exactly where the new winches will be seated, no doubt waiting to take chunks out of my knees. Does anyone have any pet boarding techniques which don't involve a flying trapeze, a contortionist or multiple watertight tunnels through the hull?

* With the roller-furler, why would anyone want to lead the Genoa/Jib halyard back to the cockpit? Well, this is a catchall idea just in case I have a nasty attack of the Downhauls or catch spinnakeritis. In any case, there are going to be a lot of lines coming off of the mast, and I am having to think long and hard about the geometry :?

Happy New Year

Andrew
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c130king
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Re: Single Line Reefing vs the 26M's rotating mast

Post by c130king »

Andrew,

Happy New Year! I will chime in here with my $0.02 worth (and 2 cents is pretty useless in the UK).

1. I have roller furling...love it. I use the jib halyard to raise/lower the sock that covers my furled genoa. I attach this halyard to the bow pulpit and it acts kinda/sorta like a back-up forestay (never tested out its effectivenss thank goodness).

2. I have single-line reefing led back to cockpit port side...love it. Considered converting to 2-line but changed my mind. Does not effect the rotation of my mast.

3. I do not have the vang led back to the cockpit...loosen to raise the main...then lean over the closed hatch and pulll tight and leave it tight all the time. Not worried about adjusting it for differing situations...just doesn't seem worth the hassle for me. And pulled tight it doesn't seem to affect mast rotation.

4. Halyards (and "haul down line"), furler, and dagger board led aft on the starboard side. Grand total of 4 (5 if you count the "haul down line" but it is just a continuation of my halyard...all one continuous line) lines ran aft.

I have four plastic 4" cleats (2 port and 2 starboard) in the cockpit and the lines also run through v-cleats. This was all done by the PO...but I am happy with the set-up and it works well. I hardly ever leave the cockpit. I only use one cleat on port side (reef) but use three lines on two cleats on starboard side (halyard/haul down, dagger board, and furling) so next Summer when I move back to the U.S. I will probably switch my furling line to the port side.

And to "ease" congestion of the lines near those cleats I use "Bill's EZ-Cleats" (similar product from Gerhauer as well) and I no longer run my genoa sheets to the winches.

Here is a pic of the cleats and you can see the v-cleats as well:

Image

As I said, it works well for me...YMMV...I am sure others will chime in with their thoughts and "modus operandi".

Good Luck,
Jim

P.S. Currently in Florida...fly back to the UK tomorrow.
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Re: Single Line Reefing vs the 26M's rotating mast

Post by bubba »

http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm42 ... ing009.jpg This how we did our 3 reefing lines, there tucked away in the pockets on the boom this saves room on the deck and is very handy from the cockpit. We also have a pocket for the outhall line. We find the 3 reefs fit all most all wind speeds untill you sail in breezes over 45 mph over that your on your own. Roger M. says on the wed site to keep your boat between 12 and 15 deg of heal to get the best speed and with 3 reefs we get all the speed we need. Like 9.5 mph gps on the 3rd reef in 35 mph breeze and stayed at a safe heal.
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magnetic
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Vang Problems

Post by magnetic »

Out today in Dubai Creek - about 6 miles by a mile at most - F1 gusting F3 and a bit - mast rotating wonderfully to Port. And then staying there. Hmmm

As per my previous posting, I was also having trouble with the boom fouling the bimini - and today I noticed it had gouged a hole. Hmmmmm

So there I was, not having yet installed my LazyJacks, led on the coachroof trying to popper up my sail cover, and the penny dropped! The vang was tightened down tighter than a very tight thing, and obviously hadn't been adjusted very often, as it was tied up in such a way that even the camcleat was bypassed and entirely redundant. I let out the tension and, Hey Presto! - the boom is now about 10 inches higher and the mast will rotate in both directions! I can't wait to get back out there tomorrow and play around with the sail shape! (and fix the hole in the bimini!)

Another lesson was that the Genoa halyard is emphatically NOT going to be led aft to the cockpit - I realised tonight when I was tidying up that if it wasn't on the mast I would have no way of zippering up the UV cover for the roller-furler singlehanded!

Under power, ballast out, everything up, I topped out at 16.7 knots @6000 rpm WOT - which given that it's a stock Honda BF50 and I wasn't noticeably underweighted, I think was pretty ok. Better than I expected, anyhow. By comparison, fully ballasted I was maxing at 13.3kts @ 5,500 rpm WOT.

Conclusions so far: I definitely need a pair of self-tailers for the Genoa sheets, the LazyJacks are going up as an absolute priority, and I think I will wait for a while before drilling too many holes into the mast for triple reefing, halyards, downhauls etc. :?
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Re: Single Line Reefing vs the 26M's rotating mast

Post by mikelinmon »

Hi,

Soon as I learn how to use my "Droid" I'll add photos of halyard led aft stuff. The whole point is to use : Cam cleat and swivel with hinge screwed to the mast. The halyard or reef line runs from the mast loose and free anywhere you or it wants to. It can be led to either winch or just free. The rotation is not hindered by this. Saves parts, no drilling into the cabin top! Sorry to all who have installed stuff on your cabin top, it is a waste of $$ and time in addition to interfence with rotation. Also, for sure, the rotation is very important to sailing in high or light wind. Important upwind, reach and downwind. One of the most important upgrades on the M vs X. I have used the mast rotation for years on my raceboats; 26D, 26X and 26m, now the 1979 V/M23. Some variants had stiff rotation and can really tell the moment mast shifts over. Think the mast rotation more important than race main at about $1,400 vs the stock mainsail. More important than daggerboard vs CB. Perhaps a tie or near tie with all of the other M vs X improvements. Think this because of the improvements in using a rotating 26M mast on 26X.
It is very difficult to determine just how much your addons improve something on a race car/boat or plane. The first thing you do will show up some stuff. Next thing is smaller, by the time you ad later "improvements" is is hard to tell if you have an improvement or just have spent $$/time. After many years of changing stuff for "improvements" am now thinking this; Number one, smooth bottom ($2,000). Number two, rotating mast ($200). Number three, $$ sails (at least $1,000 each). Number three, hardware (the whole bunch from traveler to adjustable leads to high strength lines, taller mast (about $5,000).
Love to hear from other opinions. Might change my mind, willing to.
Mike Inmon
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c130king
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Re: Vang Problems

Post by c130king »

magnetic wrote: I can't wait to get back out there tomorrow and play around with the sail shape! (and fix the hole in the bimini!)
Where in the UK are you? It seems very cold to me right now...you must have some really good anti-freeze in your blood.

Cheers,
Jim
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Re: Single Line Reefing vs the 26M's rotating mast

Post by Hamin' X »

He's in Dubai, Jim.

~Rich
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c130king
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Re: Single Line Reefing vs the 26M's rotating mast

Post by c130king »

Ahhhh....

Dubai Creek...it's in Dubai...of course...

And Dubai prolly ain't as nippy as it is here in the UK right now...just a guess.

:)
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Re: Single Line Reefing vs the 26M's rotating mast

Post by Highlander »

Oh Jim .

You keep that up you will be getting a free membership to the club I'm in " Old timer's Club" :D :D :D :D :D
Wait ' where was I :D :D :D :D :D
never mind " I'll have to think about it & get back to you " :( :P :wink:

Lets see where was I :?:
Never mind :|

J
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magnetic
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Cam cleat and swivel with hinge screwed to the mast

Post by magnetic »

Yep, I managed to pick up a couple of Harken (140's or 150's or something) when in Singapore last week, and am comfortable with sticking them either side of the mast. However, that is only 2 of the lines - I still have 3 x Single Reefing to contend with and, of course, after coming off the mast, all need to go through a turning block before going aft. I have seen two solutions to this -

a. A turning block ringed to the base of the stanchion

b. The single block currently used for turning the daggerboard line being replaced with a double or triple and copied on the opposite (Port) side of the mast

behind this I envisage a pair of 4-or-5 sheave Deck Organisers in order to level the lines out and straighten them out in parallel before entering the clutches in front of the winch; the problem is that the winch on the :macm: is set about an inch higher than the level where the clutches will be, suggesting that the line might not ride happily on the winch.

Overall, apart from the potential complexity of rigging the boat and the lesson I learned yesterday about the fore halyard, I still can't get my head around the fact that 3 lines coming off the port side of the mast (Vang and 2 reefs) and 3 coming off the starboard (halyard, downhaul and a reef) will end up with 6 lines contending with each other as to where the mast should point. Swivelling camcleat or no swivelling camcleat, 3 saying yes and 3 saying no might well confuse the mast!
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Re: Single Line Reefing vs the 26M's rotating mast

Post by bubba »

We have a dodger, bimini and full enclosure from BWY and they rigged our boat with a topping lift with 2 hooks for the aft end of the boom, we use the second hook to lift the boom up over the dodger and the biminy ( just enough not to rub ). The second hook is about 3 or 4 inches from the first. We sail with the second hook but the sails are baggy, but that height is where I usually set the boom vang to start. if you don't have a topping lift just add a fairlead to the top of the mast and tie a static line to it and then 2 hooks to the free end and put your 2 hooks according to what you need when you tighten the main sail. The length of line needs to be longer than the mast to be able to tie the 3 knots.
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Re: Vang Problems

Post by Solitario »

[quote = "c130king"] [quote = "magnetica"] Non vedo l'ora di tornare là fuori domani e giocare con la forma della vela! (e fissare il buco nel Bimini!)
[/ quote]

Nel Regno Unito, dove sei? Sembra molto freddo a me in questo momento ... è necessario disporre di alcuni anti-gelo veramente buono nel sangue.

Salute,
Jim [/ quote]

Not to make you jealous .... but in southern Italy until yesterday we had a bath in the sea ... sorry :D 8)
Roberto.
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magnetic
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Thank heaven for Google's translate function

Post by magnetic »

كذلك ، ان الاشياء الخاصة بك في الأنابيب والدخان ذلك!

I just "installed" the 49 Dhirham (about US$15) Hot Water system today and it works a treat. Basically it's just a 5 litre black plastic pag with a hook on one end and a shower attachment on the other. After 3 hours out in the sun, swing it into position over the galley by moving the traveller over to the Port side and hey presto! hot water straight into the sink. (On the box it says "Camping Shower", but the flow of water is little better than an enthusiastic piddle, which is of course absolutely ideal for washing the dishes) :)
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Re: Single Line Reefing vs the 26M's rotating mast

Post by Highlander »

Andrew

I went to a metal fabrication shop which also carries that HDPE plastic I told them what I wanted was a HDPE block that I could shape out to fit the curve on the coach deck in front of the winches I needed a block 2 1/2" x 6" x 6" they quoted me $130. :o .
So the guy sent me across the road to their wharehouse where I was able to find a "cut off" piece that exact size in their cut/off bin charge was only $30. :) :P
So the plan is to shape out two curved blocks out this block mount them to the coach deck in front of the winches this will now give me a place to mount my Spinlock double Power Clutches & swivel Spinlock power cleats to be level with the winches
Another opion I have thought about is to buy two HDPE cutting boards $6-$12. each depending on size & thickness then mounting them in same location in front of the winches attach the inner side to the hatch slider HDPE rail then make a mounting block to fit underneath the outer end this would mean less holes in the coach deck and also give you an easy mounting deck to mount other stuff onto with easy acces kinda like a small bridge in front of the winches
ROAD soldier did this mod I would not bring it out as far as he did though I'd bring it out just past the winches
http://www.macgregorsailors.com/forum/v ... 63#p175473
J
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Re: Single Line Reefing vs the 26M's rotating mast

Post by ALX357 »

I don't have an M, but I did have a Hobie with rotating mast ....

If you have sail slugs (not as gross as it sounds) there is an air slot between the sail and the mast anyway, so I don't see much added value if the mast is slightly turned. Without sail slugs, you are in a mess of trouble if you have to lower the sail in a hurry in rough conditions, especially single handed. Also it is generally just a PITA to mess with the luff rope and mast groove. The rotating mast is IMHO a gimmick with minimal value. 'Lots of other factors and adjustments that can be tweaked which will affect performance much more anyway. YMMV.
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