Wheelbase and towing (again !!)

[Robert]

I couple months back I read an article about a woman that was driving a large SUV. She is dead and its all because "her SUV swerved" to avoid a piece of tire tread that had fallen off a truck tire. The article angered me because it was written as if the SUV took the woman hostage and in a long planned conspiracy with the evil tire comapany the SUV mercilessly killed her and the SUV in the junk yard along with the evil road debris company are laughing at the parents pain and suffering even now. So her parents were going to sue the tire company and the SUV company.
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The article should have read more like driver error killed this driver. She would have been fine had she simply driven right over the road debris. Road debris happens. At least written my way the article would help other drivers to understand her mistake and be safer themselves.

[Chip Hindes]

She would have been fine had she simply driven right over the road debris. Road debris happens.

SUVs do have a higher tendency to roll over than other vehicles, and many drivers are simply not equipped to deal with it. Blaming a rollover totally on the vehicle and/or tires is usually wrong.

But it appears you're saying that simply driving over it is always the correct vehicle maneuver when one encounters road debris. If so, that's just a ridiculous as assuming the accident must be the fault of the vehicle or tires.

[Robert]

I read the article and it described a separated tread from a truck tire. Unless this was from a giant strip mining truck, I cannot imagine a tire tread that could not be driven over with less damage than a rollover. Even a complete mounted and filled with air pressure truck tire would be less damage to drive over than to flip the SUV.
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The key is that the driver did not understand the limits of her vehicle. And the part that made me angry about the article is that it made it sound as if the driver was at no fault and did the correct thing (the legacy media love a victim, it gives them a chance to attack businesses, and as any liberal will tell you, all businesses are evil, because the owner is niether a victim nor dependant on the government ) to try to avoid the debris rather than just hold on and drive over it, even if some damage to the SUV would result.

[Chip Hindes]

I read the article and it described a separated tread from a truck tire. Unless this was from a giant strip mining truck, I cannot imagine a tire tread that could not be driven over with less damage than a rollover.

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Let's see: Drive over it, not roll over -or- Swerve to miss it, roll over.

As long as you make the choices so simple, it's pretty easy.

In the real world, things are seldom this simple. Swerving around an obstacle doesn't necessarily result in a rollover, nor does deliberately running over something instead necessarily prevent a rollover.

You seem to be treating this as if the driver consciously chose to roll her SUV rather than some lesser alternative.

Even a complete mounted and filled with air pressure truck tire would be less damage to drive over than to flip the SUV.

Such a collision likely trash the suspension if it doesn't rip the entire suspension out from under the car. Cars and SUVs with some (or all) the wheels still on the ground and rolling have a chance of recovering from a tip up or too sharp turn. Those with the suspension ripped off have little such chance and are pretty much guaranteed to roll over.

You need to understand, I agree with you that blaming the vehicle is usually wrong.

But just because you know (in hindsight) what it was she was about to hit, whether it was just a big piece of rubber or a maybe a big piece of steel beam, what damage it might cause if she were to hit it, what might happen if she were to instead swerve around it, process this all, make the right decision, and take the appropriate action, all in a matter of fractions of a second; that's just as wrong.

[Jack O'Brien]

I'm not going to enter the SUV roll-over discussion.

However, Robert, while I greatly admire your normally comprehensive and logical discussions of propellers and other mechanical subjects, please do not use the term "Liberal" derogatorily or ascribe an anti-business attitude to all who are not conservative. It just isn't so.

Thank you.

[Jeff S]

Ok, Old Blue ('93 Ford F-150 351W) is getting a bit too old- 204k miles. It tows well but I don't trust it on a long trip. It recently drove from AZ to NC pullling 5k and made it, but I am ready for a new tow vehicle.

All this talk about tow vehicles really got me looking into them. I already have a Toyota Sienna minivan, haven't towed with it. I need a daily driver that can tow, put the whole fam damily in (5) plus get good mileage. I keep coming back to a diesel truck with 4 doors. Looking at 20-24mpg unloaded and 12-15 towing with power to spare towing the Mac, engine that will last a long time (as I have shown I am willing to drive a vehicle for many miles). The trucks have more room than a 4 door sedan (no wheel hump in the back), and of course the truck bed to place a lot. I like DEACM's Toureg as an option, but it is too pricey for me and I still wouldn't want to throw junk in the back on the way to the dumps. So.... Got a quote on a Dodge Ram 2500 quad cab SLT 4x4 with 5.9L Cummins Turbo Diesel and 6 speed manual tranny- $34k nicely equipped. I think I am going to place the order (factory order 8 weeks delivery) this week.

I considered many SUV's but not having a bed to throw stuff in was an issue- the comments on this board were the nail in the coffin for SUV's. Neighbors just got a nice Suburban- they are pricey and no diesel. If I needed more seating I guess I would go with the Suburban. I think the Quad/Crew cabs are good for 5 people, 6 may be a bit tight. I like Moe's idea of the Shell on back that makes it a little more SUV like, but still retains truck qualities. I have one on the F150 and I like being able to lock stuff in the back and fill up yard trash to the top if required.

Anyway- towing is only a small part of what most of us use our vehicles for and I think we all have slightly different needs beyond towing. I have probably stirred up the old Chevy/Dodge/Ford argument for trucks- they are all nice. I have some loyalty too Ford since I got 204k miles, but for Diesels I have to go with the Cummins in the Dodge. Great thing is they are now up to 15k between oil changes and are really quiet now (the Cummins of 2 years ago were really loud!).

When I get it I will finally feel ok about driving down to Florida with the Mac and do some sailing down there in the promised land (not that NC is bad though!). I bought the Mac for these kinds of trips, looking forward to exploiting that capability of the Mac!

Jeff
Jeff

[Dimitri-2000X-Tampa]

After Moe's post, I looked up some of the crew cab trucks and they seem to only seat 5. I got a family of 6 and I like to have an extra seat or two for guests too so I'm really looking for a capacity of 7-8. Keep coming back to suburbans, but the Toyota Seqouia seems to have pretty good ratings although a lower towing capacity.

The other problem with these large SUV's is that it seems to be a major pita to get into the third row..basically having to climb over the second row. At least in my minivan, there is a space between the seats (or you can configure the space to be beside the seats) to get through. The second row only seats 2, so the total capacity is 7.

Seems like this search could take a while

[Moe]

I agree that they're all good, and each has it's strengths. Before settling on the Ram, compare the cab, especially the back seat, with the SuperDuty. The '05 SuperDuties are really nice, and even more capable than my '02, but most of us PSD owners will concede the Cummins gets better mileage. One thing in Dodge's favor is that they won't void your warranty for installing an exhaust brake (not that you even come near to needing one with a Mac).

--
Moe

[Jeff S]

I do like the interior of the SD better than the Dodge- hands down. The rear seat room is better for one. The kicker as you mentioned is the Cummins. The 6.0L PSD has had some probs since it came out and I am not to sure about it yet, the 7.3 was a good diesel. I think the Ford Auto Trans is decent as well. I have a friend with a 6.0 PSD and he has had a few problems with it, most were recall items. I like the Dodge Ext, Ford Interior and Cummins Diesel- If I could build my perfect vehicle that would be it. One more thing- I have found a guy that is willing to go 3% below invoice on the Dodge, the Ford is a bit more expensive. I did compare the SD though and overall I like it, Dodge just won out by a bit. Chevy- well the Allison Tranny is not all its cracked up to be for handlilng the toruqe of the Duramax. The Dmax seems decent. The Chevy was pretty expensive too. In the end I opted for the 6 spd manual- bulletproof, easily handle the torque of a diesel and when it fails much cheaper to replace the clutch.

Dmitiri- I fully agree on the 5 capacity of the crew cabs. Suburbans are nice, as far as 3rd row your kids can get some athletic practice getting back there. On a side note have you checked out the Ford Expedition or the new Dodge Durango, which is much larger than the old Durango? They all have 3rd row seats. And then there is the Conversion van route as well- lots of seating, decent towing, and the fold down couch....If this van's a rockin...

Jeff

[Robert]

Sorry if I offended anyone.
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When I used the term liberal I meant the people that I have experienced in person that think that all businesses are out to get them and ironically, they think the government (the world's biggest business) can absolutely be trusted and therefore bigger is better and government ought to regulate every detail of their lives while providing all their "basic needs". My view is that government should be very limited to what is required of it in the constitution plus whatever cannot be done by a group of private businesses in competition. Competition will keep them producing better products at lower costs as well as keeping them honest. Monopoly government run businesses (schools included) cannot be efficient and have little incentive to provide the best product because they are not responsible to their customer - the people.
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"In the end they will lay their freedom at our feet and say to us, 'Make us your slaves, but feed us.'" [Dosteovsky's 'Grand Inquisitor']
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"In general the art of government consists in taking as much money as possible from one class of citizens to give to the other." [Voltaire]
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More quotes at: http://boortz.com/more/quotes.html
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Please do not reply to this. I want to rid this discussion of politics.
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WebMaster: Please delete all messages I have ever posted with the word liberal or that have included a political reference. I will not let politics polute these waters again. Thank You
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[Robert]

Back when the Duramax Diesel was about to become available, there was a plan to offer a diesel Suburban. I thought that a 20+ MPG Suburban was a great idea. I went to the dealers asking about it every couple years, so far no diesel suburbans.
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I think there is about to be a big increase in clean diesels made for high MPG and occational towing and hope its true. The Jeep Liberty is supposed to be avialable now or soon with a 2.8L diesel. In 2006, the 2007 model year Isuzu Trooper will be re-introduced with a high tech pair of direct injection engines, one is diesel the other gasoline direct injection. The gasoline direct injection engine has had rave reviews in the Isuzu Rodeo and Axiom.
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http://forums.autoweek.com/thread.jspa? ... eadID=3568
http://www.truckworld.com/Sport-Utility ... axiom.html
http://www.difflock.com/nm/publish/news_126.shtml
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I think a high torque strsight four diesel in a stiff suspension minivan would be a great tow vehicle for occational towers that also have a bunch of kids. The straight inline four diesel could be mounted sideways with everything easy to reach for maintenance. The aerodynamic minivan with the fuel efficient diesel should get around 40 MPG not towing and maybe 15 to 20 MPP towing.
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I stand by my claim that my Isuzu Trooper (my latest Trooper has 4 wheel ABS) is a good tow vehicle, I forgot to mention before, the Trooper has large disc brakes at all four wheels, I was always able to stop, although a heavier tow vehicle would be able to stop the Mac26 better because of more friction available at the road surface, if it had good brakes. Once in a semi emergency stop when a van pulled in front of me and stopped to turn left, I hit the brakes hard at 50 MPH or so and got significant smoke from the front tires (the rear end had ABS) and stopped in plenty of time, that was right before I switched the trailer to disc brakes because I suspected that the trailer brakes were not functioning.

[Jim Bunnell]

Dimitri-

The GMC Yukon (Chevy Suburban) full length offers 7 place seating with "captain" chairs in the middle position. They provide a middle passthrough route, or alternatively one side will pivot forward for rear access from the doorway. I don't know about the stiffness of the rear suspension, but my AWD Denali towed my 26M with two weeks of supplies, full gas tanks, and 15 gallons of water from Detroit to the North Channel and back (total about 650 miles, 80% interstate at 65 to 70 MPH) with no sway or control problems.

[Jeff S]

I put in my order for my new truck today- Dodge Ram 2500 Quad Cab SWB 4WD with Cummins Turbo Diesel engine and 6spd Manual transmission. It is expected to be delivered in 6-8 weeks. Looking forward to hooking it up to the Mac.

Jeff S

[Robert]

Wow, that diesel and 6 speed should get you just about the best possible MPG towing the Mac26X. Please post your with and without Mac26X MPG. Thank You.