Long Distance WiFi...

[Sumner]

For those with the appropriate radio licence that only needs email access, have a look at http://www.winlink.org/

I don't use them myself, I keep forgetting to take the laptop with us, eventually when the new business kicks in internet access will be essential for us.

Glenn

I might be wrong, but in addition to a SSB radio and the license (don't need to know code now I believe for a basic license) you need a modem and they are not cheap. I think way north of $600 or so and I don't think that you can use an older/cheaper SSB radio with the modem.

If a person was a full time cruiser I think this would definitely be the way to go. If and when we go to the Sea of Cortez I would like to have a SSB radio on board and have the license although you don't need to have a license to listen and I guess in a dire emergency they might over-look that also.

c ya,

Sum

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[Sumner]

Sounds like Sumner and I have been trying to come up with a solution for wireless,and in my case,for Skype in the Bahamas,without paying big $$. It doesn't seem like there are a lot of good solutions
Also would like cell phone service for less than $1.14 a minute
I can get an unlocked phone and purchase a Batelco sim card,works out to $100-150.Purchase air time.
I can purchase a booster like the Wirie,that plugs into a USB port on my laptop. There's $300 spent
Same deal for the Bitstorm "Bad Boy",it's $299.
I can dinghy over to the internet cafe(hear ther'es a new one in GGT) and pay for time-1/2 hr for $6 or 8. For the 2-3 times a month I need it,this seems like the deal.

Any other good ideas for someone who isn't an electronics whiz?

I initially was going to go with a USB radio, the one used in the Wirie, but after all the reading I've done now feel that the Bullet is superior and for that reason if I wanted to buy a complete ready to go system would go with the Island Time or the Bad Boy (the expensive one) as they use the Bullet. I think the comparison chart for the Wirie is not a fair comparison as they try and put doubt in your mind about the Bullet. Note is is at the far end of the chart from their product. Also in this photo you can.............



.....see Bullets, just like the ones in the kits, being used outside in a very industrial situation. They are at the bottom of the antennas by the workers. You would never find a USB radio in one of these situations.

If you don't mind hoisting an antenna 10 feet or so when using it and having the cord going out of the cockpit the USB radio can still get out there pretty good and would be fine for close in WiFi like in a marina or near one that has WiFi.

I'd use the radio that Wirie uses that you can get for under $50....

http://www.data-alliance.net/-strse-73/ ... Detail.bok

or this 2000 mw....

http://www.data-alliance.net/-strse-158 ... Detail.bok

Hook it to this antenna...... ($24.00).....

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/de ... N&v=glance

with this connector.......($6.00)...

http://www.data-alliance.net/-strse-144 ... Detail.bok

and then a USB cable up to 15 feet or so...................and if you want to mount it in an enclosure for some weather protection (other wise just put it up when the sun is out) add something like this....

http://www.data-alliance.net/-strse-161 ... Detail.bok

I came close to this as a solution and it isn't a bad one, just not as good as the Bullet if you are really trying for long distance. The Bullet is harder to setup if you don't buy one of the above complete kits, but you can mount it any distance from the computer you want (not limited by the 15 foot USB cable -- you might be able to use an 'active' USB cable for longer distances, but your USB port might not have the power for that). The USB option is more user friendly though and if you are not trying to connect from a mile or more out might be the easiest and cheapest way to go. What I outlined above is basically what you get in the Wirie kit and you can see it adds up to a lot less.

Good luck,

Sum

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[dvideohd]

This whole subject is evolving pretty fast...

I have not put a long range WiFi in yet... but this is an area where I have been working for many years....

There is a Power Over Ethernet standard out there which works very well. A 4 wire Cat 5 cable can carry 11 watts of power... more than enough...

It is fine to just put 12V on the two pairs - with the right diodes - and take the 12V off at the destination. So one can put a Ethernet to WiFi module on at the top of the mast. You need to seal it really well.... or get one expressly for the purpose. But they are small modules and can be sealed well...

So you might look at these types of solution.... USB is NOT designed for long cable runs.. Ethernet IS designed for much longer than mast length runs. This is just another avenue of thinking open....

************

I am sure that there are a number of good "how tos" on this out there..

--jr

[Sumner]

This whole subject is evolving pretty fast...

I have not put a long range WiFi in yet... but this is an area where I have been working for many years....

There is a Power Over Ethernet standard out there which works very well. A 4 wire Cat 5 cable can carry 11 watts of power... more than enough...

It is fine to just put 12V on the two pairs - with the right diodes - and take the 12V off at the destination. So one can put a Ethernet to WiFi module on at the top of the mast. You need to seal it really well.... or get one expressly for the purpose. But they are small modules and can be sealed well...

So you might look at these types of solution.... USB is NOT designed for long cable runs.. Ethernet IS designed for much longer than mast length runs. This is just another avenue of thinking open....

************

I am sure that there are a number of good "how tos" on this out there..

--jr

The Ethernet you explained above is exactly what you end up with using the Bullet 2HP radio ($80) attached to the antenna and why I'm going that route and not a USB based system. You inject 12 volts from the battery into the Ethernet cable going up to the Bullet and from what I've seen with that combination you don't need to install diodes even. Maybe they are in the Bullet if needed.

People are having fairly good luck out a ways with the better USB radios attached to the antenna like I outlined above. But like you said the short cable run is restrictive and it is a pain to raise these systems up and down if you are out on the water a lot.

c ya,

Sum

[kiltym]

I can purchase a booster like the Wirie,that plugs into a USB port on my laptop. There's $300 spent

I initially was going to go with a USB radio, the one used in the Wirie, but after all the reading I've done now feel that the Bullet is superior and for that reason if I wanted to buy a complete ready to go system would go with the Island Time or the Bad Boy (the expensive one) as they use the Bullet. I think the comparison chart for the Wirie is not a fair comparison as they try and put doubt in your mind about the Bullet. Note is is at the far end of the chart from their product. Also in this photo you can.............



.....see Bullets, just like the ones in the kits, being used outside in a very industrial situation. They are at the bottom of the antennas by the workers. You would never find a USB radio in one of these situations.

If you don't mind hoisting an antenna 10 feet or so when using it and having the cord going out of the cockpit the USB radio can still get out there pretty good and would be fine for close in WiFi like in a marina or near one that has WiFi.

I'd use the radio that Wirie uses that you can get for under $50....

http://www.data-alliance.net/-strse-73/ ... Detail.bok

or this 2000 mw....

http://www.data-alliance.net/-strse-158 ... Detail.bok

Hook it to this antenna...... ($24.00).....

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/de ... N&v=glance

with this connector.......($6.00)...

http://www.data-alliance.net/-strse-144 ... Detail.bok

and then a USB cable up to 15 feet or so...................and if you want to mount it in an enclosure for some weather protection (other wise just put it up when the sun is out) add something like this....

http://www.data-alliance.net/-strse-161 ... Detail.bok

I came close to this as a solution and it isn't a bad one, just not as good as the Bullet if you are really trying for long distance. The Bullet is harder to setup if you don't buy one of the above complete kits, but you can mount it any distance from the computer you want (not limited by the 15 foot USB cable -- you might be able to use an 'active' USB cable for longer distances, but your USB port might not have the power for that). The USB option is more user friendly though and if you are not trying to connect from a mile or more out might be the easiest and cheapest way to go. What I outlined above is basically what you get in the Wirie kit and you can see it adds up to a lot less.

Good luck,

Sum

Hi Sumner,

Just as a matter of full disclosure, my name is Mark Kilty and The Wirie is the product I developed and our company sells. I do not post on message boards, except when inaccurate information specifically about our products is posted or about information we have on our web site is questioned.

I want to point out a few inaccuracies about your post, just to help educate everyone a bit about Marine WiFi in general. I am not trying to "promote" my product, however, I feel it is necessary to state the facts.

The cost of The Wirie is $250, not $300 as stated above.

Our product comparison chart was written to let people know the Bullet is not a good solution for the marine environment. You can say its "not a fair comparison", however the Bullet2HP is not waterproof. There is no debate on this. Put one in a bucket of water if you don't believe me. They are OK if water only hits the unit from above, vertically downward, as in rain (even then, many have leaked). Anything from another direction and the unit will have issues (like when sailing for instance).

The photo you posted: I would not use USB their either, there is no computer to power it. They employed network engineers and have the ability to run ethernet cabling and power it from long distance with high voltage. PERFECT application for the Bullet, and exactly what it was designed for! To say therefore its perfect for a boat, is a pretty big leap.

As far as attempting to list our parts to build a Wirie, we encourage you to try if you would like to attempt to save some money and are technically inclined (just as you can purchase a Bullet and put together the parts yourself instead of buying a "kit"). However, there are custom pieces to our product, but feel free to use what you listed and see how long it holds up on your boat. We have looked at many different parts to use in our manufacturing process, and believe me, we didn't come up with the parts for The Wirie overnight.

Just so you know, the 2000mW Alfa adapter does not work as well for b/g networks as the adapter we are using, you can find our test results through our FAQ, right above the links to all the unbiased issues with the Bullet and water.

Your statement that USB devices wont give as much range as Ethernet is 100% false. No one could ever make a legitimate claim like that. USB and Ethernet are cables, they have nothing to do with how well a consumer based WiFi device works. We connect from over a mile on a regular basis, and have connected much further as well. The Bullet and The Wirie will preform very similarly, even though one is USB based and one is Ethernet based.

There is no issue running USB Active Ext Cables up to 80', assuming your computer was built to the USB 2.0 spec, which any computer built in the last 5 years is. (Also FYI, the POE cabling to power the bullet will lose too much voltage over the run from a 12V battery to go much over about the same 80')

If you have any questions about The Wirie I can answer for you, or marine WiFi in general, please don't hesitate to contact me at [email protected] or http://www.thewirie.com, but I won't post any follow-up information on this site as I feel it would be inappropriate and not in the spirit of forums.

Have a great day!
Mark

[Sumner]

.....Just as a matter of full disclosure, my name is Mark Kilty and The Wirie is the product I developed and our company sells. I do not post on message boards, except when inaccurate information specifically about our products is posted or about information we have on our web site is questioned.

I want to point out a few inaccuracies about your post, just to help educate everyone a bit about Marine WiFi in general. I am not trying to "promote" my product, however, I feel it is necessary to state the facts.

The cost of The Wirie is $250, not $300 as stated above.

Our product comparison chart was written to let people know the Bullet is not a good solution for the marine environment. You can say its "not a fair comparison", however the Bullet2HP is not waterproof. There is no debate on this. Put one in a bucket of water if you don't believe me. They are OK if water only hits the unit from above, vertically downward, as in rain (even then, many have leaked). Anything from another direction and the unit will have issues (like when sailing for instance).

The photo you posted: I would not use USB their either, there is no computer to power it. They employed network engineers and have the ability to run ethernet cabling and power it from long distance with high voltage. PERFECT application for the Bullet, and exactly what it was designed for! To say therefore its perfect for a boat, is a pretty big leap.

As far as attempting to list our parts to build a Wirie, we encourage you to try if you would like to attempt to save some money and are technically inclined (just as you can purchase a Bullet and put together the parts yourself instead of buying a "kit"). However, there are custom pieces to our product, but feel free to use what you listed and see how long it holds up on your boat. We have looked at many different parts to use in our manufacturing process, and believe me, we didn't come up with the parts for The Wirie overnight.

Just so you know, the 2000mW Alfa adapter does not work as well for b/g networks as the adapter we are using, you can find our test results through our FAQ, right above the links to all the unbiased issues with the Bullet and water.

Your statement that USB devices wont give as much range as Ethernet is 100% false. No one could ever make a legitimate claim like that. USB and Ethernet are cables, they have nothing to do with how well a consumer based WiFi device works. We connect from over a mile on a regular basis, and have connected much further as well. The Bullet and The Wirie will preform very similarly, even though one is USB based and one is Ethernet based.

There is no issue running USB Active Ext Cables up to 80', assuming your computer was built to the USB 2.0 spec, which any computer built in the last 5 years is. (Also FYI, the POE cabling to power the bullet will lose too much voltage over the run from a 12V battery to go much over about the same 80')

If you have any questions about The Wirie I can answer for you, or marine WiFi in general, please don't hesitate to contact me at [email protected] or http://www.thewirie.com, but I won't post any follow-up information on this site as I feel it would be inappropriate and not in the spirit of forums.

Have a great day!
Mark

Thanks for the input, but I, "my opinion" is that the Bullet can be a better alternative than a USB radio if you are looking for a long range WiFi solution and I won't repeat all of those reasons as anyone is free to go back and read them. From what I read (see those other links to the cruising site) there are probably hundreds of 'full time' cruisers out there on sailboats using the Bullet very successfully. Most of the commercial applications that you can buy for your boat using a Bullet, your competitors, have taken measures to deal with the marine environment.

I'll also agree that a USB solution has its place and mentioned that in the posts I've made. Just as I recommend that someone who just wants a working solution should go to commercial application using the Bullet if someone doesn't feel they are up to piecing a USB solution together they should look to a commercial vendor such as yourself or one of your competitors.

As you mentioned the the 2000 mw Alfa is not the best for all WiFi conditions and I agree with that along with in some instances the lower wattage Bullet is better than the higher wattage Bullet 2HP. If someone doesn't want to figure all of this out and make a decision for how they are going to be using/trying to connect to WiFi I repeat one more time. Look to to a ventor for a solution.

Personally I would still rather have a good outside type Ethernet cable running outside in a marine environment vs. a USB cable, but I'm sure that can be debated also.

I'll still try and answer any questions here that I might be able to help with as long as the moderators feel that is appropriate and will post on my site and here later how the system I'm going to build performs and the good, the bad and the ugly about it. I have no financial interest in the outcome or this whole subject in any way. Just wanted that to be clear.

Just as one person wants a Chevy and another wants a Ford there will probably be for some time to come a market for Bullet type WiFi solutions and likewise for USB WiFi solutions. Sorry about misquoting the price of your system, but someone else did that and I just quoted their post. Good luck with your business,

Sum

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[Russ]

Okay Sumner,
I went through a lot of this information and have concluded this is not very complicated at all. It basically comes down to a good antenna and a powerful transmitter/receiver which are stock items.

There are pros and cons to the Cat5 vs. USB. The USB is certainly easier to setup. Plug it in, install drivers and play. However it won't allow you to create a hotspot without some creativity, but for a single PC hookup it's not bad. The Bullet seems like a nice device, but configuration is trickier.
I'm sure it can be debated, but I would have concerns how fragile the USB cabling could be. Maybe that's coming from early versions of USB tainting my opinions. Years ago I pushed parallel ports to 50' which was supposed to be 40' too much and I have long runs of component video over shielded Cat5 in my home theater, so pushing USB lengths is probably not a big deal.

I'm going to explore this more as I can see many applications.


--Russ

[mlahrkamp]

Just to jump in and help expand on a few things regarding Bullets:
They are rated as IP65 meaning they are dust proof and when installed properly, can take low pressure water from any direction - top, side or bottom. They can be dunked, but should not be immersed for longer periods. The statement 'many have leaked' is unsupported and the picture clearly shows professionals installing them in outside environments. The Cat5 connector can corrode, same as a USB type can. Put a thin coating of silicone dielectric grease on them (like the pros do) and they'll last just about forever.

The Bitstorm BAD BOY Xtreme kits start at $169 (http://www.bitstorm.com) and go up depending on how much outside rated ethernet cable you'd like (not $299 like stated previously). This makes them the least expensive of the Bullet 'kits'. Additionally, they do not use the native firmware that comes with the Bullet. Their user interface is shown in docs on their support page and with not having to load drivers, makes it just about as easy as it can get. But decide for yourself. There's also the optional BAD BOY Unleashed to create your own private hotspot. Of interest is that the Bullets are warranted for a year. I note the USB based product mentioned previously is only warranted for 3 months. That would suggest a greater confidence with ethernet based devices.

FCC regulations prohibit the use of anything over 1000mW, so a 2W unit will likely perform poorly due to overpowering. Think of it as everyone talking normally and you have one person shouting all the time. Keep the antenna gain realistic: don't even think about going over 9dBi gain.

Put the Wi-Fi antenna as high as you can. Why do you put your VHF antenna at the top of the mast? Same goes for Wi-Fi. Get the fresnel zone (google it) away from the surface of the water.

Mike

[kiltym]

Just to jump in and help expand on a few things regarding Bullets:
They are rated as IP65 meaning they are dust proof and when installed properly, can take low pressure water from any direction - top, side or bottom. They can be dunked, but should not be immersed for longer periods. The statement 'many have leaked' is unsupported and the picture clearly shows professionals installing them in outside environments. The Cat5 connector can corrode, same as a USB type can. Put a thin coating of silicone dielectric grease on them (like the pros do) and they'll last just about forever.

The Bitstorm BAD BOY Xtreme kits start at $169 (http://www.bitstorm.com) and go up depending on how much outside rated ethernet cable you'd like (not $299 like stated previously). This makes them the least expensive of the Bullet 'kits'. Additionally, they do not use the native firmware that comes with the Bullet. Their user interface is shown in docs on their support page and with not having to load drivers, makes it just about as easy as it can get. But decide for yourself. There's also the optional BAD BOY Unleashed to create your own private hotspot. Of interest is that the Bullets are warranted for a year. I note the USB based product mentioned previously is only warranted for 3 months. That would suggest a greater confidence with ethernet based devices.

FCC regulations prohibit the use of anything over 1000mW, so a 2W unit will likely perform poorly due to overpowering. Think of it as everyone talking normally and you have one person shouting all the time. Keep the antenna gain realistic: don't even think about going over 9dBi gain.

Put the Wi-Fi antenna as high as you can. Why do you put your VHF antenna at the top of the mast? Same goes for Wi-Fi. Get the fresnel zone (google it) away from the surface of the water.

Mike

First, Mike, I think it would be beneficial and forthright to state who you are. You are in fact the owner of the Bitstorm. These message boards are for users, not commercial purposes.

Second, Ubiquiti has made no such claims of the IP rating of their product (they only state weatherproof). Where you received this information of it being IP65 would be interesting to see since on their spec sheets there is no such information provided. If you email them, they will not make this statement either (please try).

Third, Your statement "They are rated as IP65 meaning they are dust proof and when installed properly, can take low pressure water from any direction - top, side or bottom. They can be dunked, but should not be immersed for longer periods. The statement 'many have leaked' is unsupported"

Here is just a sample of issues with the bullet, but if you think this is unsupported, simply do some Google searches yourself (These are all from Ubiquiti message boards):

http://www.ubnt.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-7838.html
http://www.ubnt.com/forum/showthread.php?p=75493
http://forum.ubnt.com/forum/showthread.php?t=18186

If they were so waterproof, there would not be discussions on many message boards about people installing the Bullet into PVC tubing and the likes to make sure the water stays off. Some of the other re-sellers of the bullet even supply a warning with their product stating prolonged exposure in the marine environment will shorten the life of the unit. This is all fact, unlike the things you are writing, which is simply a big advertisement. The bullet was built for outdoor use, not marine use. Just ask other re-sellers of the same product, they will all say the same thing.

Fourth, you state "Put the Wi-Fi antenna as high as you can.". In all our our testing, this again is not a true statement. There may be specific situations where having the antenna up your mast will make a difference, but it s very rare and typically not worth the effort. Again, lots of info on the internet about this. Clear of nearby obstructions on your boat is important for the longest range.

Fifth, regarding the warranty of our product, we have never had a unit returned to us for any reason in over a year. Again, the same cannot be said for the bullet solutions, just ask Ubiquiti themselves.

Mark

!	kmclemore:
	Comments directed against another forum poster removed.

[kmclemore]

!

kmclemore:

. I will allow this 'debate' to continue, because I feel the knowledge gained may be valuable to our members. However, we will expect the following: - Owners, vendors, manufacturers, representatives and anyone associated with any product must state - at the outset - who they are, clearly delineating their position in relation to the product (owner, sales, etc.). If you have not already stated your product relationship, please do it now. - There will be no 'marketing' of the products. This is admittedly a fine line. To that end, stating and explaining your product's features, functions & capabilities will be fine, but if you move into selling, pricing, availability, or anything that even begins to smell like 'selling', this discussion is over and jailed. - Everyone will behave like gentlemen (or gentle ladies), and the discussion will consist of facts and data only - no backbiting, name calling, accusations, rumors, or any other comments reflecting bad manners will be tolerated. - Comments regarding another product must be backed up with verifiable facts and data, and not just consist of accusations or innuendo. - We will communicate with respect for each other, as if we were sitting in the marina pub sharing beers together and having a valuable discussion/debate on a topic of interest. - If folks can't stick to the above rules, this thread will be closed and moved to the jail. No second chances. This is the way we like manage our forum, and is one of the reasons this forum is so well respected and helpful to our members. Those that do not agree with this policy may certainly choose to post on some other forum where this is not the case.

[Sumner]

Hi Guys,

Here is my offer to both of you. You both send me your WiFi solutions and I'll put both of them on our boat and test them side by side over the next year and supply a review of both during and after our trips this coming year. I'll work with both of you to try and optimize the performance on our boat. At the end of the year I'll return your products to both of you and decide if we are going to buy either or put together our own or buy one from someone else.

I'll have a considerable amount of my time in this, installing them and reporting on them. After a year I will be where I am now and still have to buy something for us to use. I would like to think I'd give an unbiased report as I have considered both options.

Sounds like a lot of cheap exposure for both of you, both here and on a few other sites along with general exposure on the Internet via my site.

Think about it,

Sum

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[flynfol]

Great idea Sum.....hope they go for it. I have been watching this thread with interest and hope you post some initial findings (if they go for it)

How 'bout it guys....free field testing....some head to head competition?

[Russ]

Great idea Sum,

I know you would put a lot of effort into an honest report. Plus you would report your findings on many forums. A solution provider with confidence would send you one tomorrow.

I see merits in both products, but I also am waiting to hear Sumner's results before committing to a purchase. I have found Sumner's evaluations very influential.

Go for it.


---Russ

[mlahrkamp]

Hello again,
My initial post was generic in that I simply corrected errors that had been reported in previous postings. And yes, I am employed at Bitstorm.

Regarding Bullets: All specifications we have on our website are direct from Ubiquiti and supported in writing. Many thousands have been installed in the field and a small portion of returns due to water leakage is not quantitative to suggest 'many'. Admittedly, some early Bullets had an issue with decals that allowed water ingress, but that has been resolved for quite some time now. We don't claim waterproof, we state weatherproof to an IP65 rating (we have that in writing). The biggest issue with Bullets in the marine environment is not water, but rather salt air. We use these in our marina hotspots and apply a small amount of silicone dielectric (included with kit) to the ethernet contacts to inhibit corrosion. The same technique also serves USB based devices well. We have had some in service now unattended for 1.5 years without a failure. We have hundreds installed and so far not a single failure - either for leakage or for corrosion. Perhaps other resellers have not yet learned about the advantages of dielectric grease.

Regarding elevation: Wi-Fi works on the same frequency band as microwaves. Water absorbes microwave energy and turns it into heat. That's how a microwave cooks. Any point to point connection also has what's called a Fresnel zone (google 'wi-fi fresnel zone'). You may also wish to look at 'rain fade'. The idea is to get water away from this zone. We put our VHF antenna as high as possible because it gives best range. I'm sure everyone would agree that a VHF antenna at deck level is no match for one at the top of a mast. We've found the same's true for Wi-Fi - if for no other reason than to get the signal above the forest of metal masts and other obstructions typically found at anchorages and marinas. Top of the bimini will be noticibly better than on a rail. Also, visual line-of-sight is not the same as radio line-of-sight. Again google will be your friend.

Regarding warranty: We're confident enough in what we sell, and how it will be used to offer a one year warranty.

Regarding comparing: Already done. The April issue of Practical Sailor carries a comparison with two Bullet based products as well as the Wirie. [REDACTED COPYRIGHTED MATERIAL] You can read it online.

BTW: Did not see the redacted parts - might have added some interesting perspective.

Regards,
Mike

!	kmclemore:
	Removed selected quote from PS. I would suggest that members read the PS article in its entirety.

[Love MACs]

I think I will just bite the bullet on this matter and wait 'till the storm blows over


Allan