Decisions, decisions....

[vizwhiz]

Okay - I started out my newbie "hello" post on the other thread (powersailers) but am pretty convinced that wifey and I (is it appropriate to call her the Admiral when we don't have a boat yet?) are going to start with a day-sailer and move up from there...several reasons, like finances and time and maintenance and tow vehicles and such...

Checked Craigslist and found right away a number of small sailboats including several Mac 22's that were in the price range I was thinking about (under $4000), and a smattering of other boats (didn't look for them too hard) like a Spindrift 22 that looks nicely decked out for the same price range. I was thinking I'd want to stick with a Mac 22 because (a) it's the right size for our car and our budget and our time, and (b) it seems small enough to learn on and handle easily, but big enough to enjoy a little space, (c) it's a Mac, and eventually I'd like to be in a 26M, so I'd at least be familiar with the Mac way of thinking!

First, is there anything I should know about a Mac 22 that I'd be able to look for right off to be able to tell if the boat has been abused?

Second, are there any inherent drawbacks to the Mac 22 that would make it a not-good-for-the-first-boat choice? (Like - "it likes to tip over"...)

Third, are there any years in particular that were just "stay away" years? The boats I've seen listed include early-to-mid 80's boats...

Last question - should I give equal consideration to the Spindrift and other boats? Some appeared to be in good shape and had lots of extras for the $$...don't want to short-change myself just because of a name...

Thanks in advance!!

[ChockFullOnuts22]

The Venture or MacGregor 22 / 222 is a terrific boat, even for a beginner. It has all of the advantages that you already mentioned, and is forgiving on novice goof-ups out on the water (I know this from experience ). These boats are just as stable as other trailerable swing-keel 22's out there, and even without the halyard rigged back to the cockpit, are an easy boat to manage.

As far as abuse to look for....look for damage to the hull or deck, as well as the overall condition of the rigging and sails. Make sure that the hull is sitting well on the trailer and not buckling in on its own weight (happens mostly in the larger boats when on the wrong trailer, or when bunk boards are too short). And last but not least, look at the KEEL. Venture/MacGregor 22's built after 1974 had a cast iron keel that is low-maintenance as long as it isn't allowed to rust. If the keel is really rusty, beware. The pivot bolt hole, if rusted badly, can fail and drop the keel out of the bottom of the boat. If it looks like a boat that has been neglected, and the keel is rusty, I wouldn't mess with such a boat unless the price was absurdly low (and even then, I would be cautious).

Stay away years. Because of the fiberglass-laminated keels of 1969-1973, I might recommend staying away from boats built during those years. Once those keels start to rust (inner steel core), it's more work to clean them back up and the fiberglass has to get re-done. If you can find one that has already been overhauled (or one in good shape at least), however, there's nothing wrong with the earlier years.

[Sumner]

We have a 26S and for our sailing prefer it over a 26D, but where you are I think the D would be a great boat and you see some of them in the $4000 range at times. It would give you quite a bit more room than the 22 and weight wise, since it is water ballast doesn't really weigh more on the trailer.

We had never sailed and had no problem learning on the S, so I can't imagine that the 22 is all that much easier to sail. Don't forget in shallow water with the D or S you can sail with the centerboard up and not loose stability since you still have the water ballast. You just give up some performance when trying to tack into the wind and we have even done that to some degree when we have forgotten to lower the centerboard in the morning. With the 22 you really need to have the board down and you have some shallow water in Florida.

If it was me the 26D for its versatility would win out over the 22 if I could come up with just a little more money. You might find that it takes you a long ways down the road like we have.

Good luck,

Sum

Our Trips to...

Our Mac Pages

Mac-Venture Links

[JoeVacs]

My Venture 17 came from your area several years ago ( St Petersburgh area ) and I drug her up here and rebuilt her. She's currently looking for a new, more active home. I'm under your price range if you want another look, pm me.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/25826781@N ... otostream/

[LOUIS B HOLUB]

We have a 26S and for our sailing prefer it over a 26D, but where you are I think the D would be a great boat and you see some of them in the $4000 range at times. It would give you quite a bit more room than the 22 and weight wise, since it is water ballast doesn't really weigh more on the trailer.
Sum

I would like to agree with Sum...we had a 26-S previously, and it was EASY TO TOW and RIG (a big plus) and it sailed well. We had an 8 hp Merc. which moved the boat fine. We've comfortably camped, anchored, sailed, etc. with our prev. Mac "S"
The swing keel is easily removed for maintenance, and the "S" provides room enough for options of anchorage and protected water cruising, with the additional interior space. I'm sold on the water ballast for the trailerable.

Good Luck

[dvideohd]

Sum is most accurate!!

3-5 days on a 26D is OK... I do envy the stern rail on a 26S - and think about the Swing Keel... but we like the 26D and will keep for a long while..

One good thing about both boats is that you don't feel shy when it comes to MODS. My friend with a $75K boat would wince when the subject of MODs came up.

--jerry

[vizwhiz]

Thanks for all the advice, offers, and input - I really appreciate it.
I am seeing the value in water ballast and it's relationship to the waters we'll be sailing - which at least early-on will be in and around Tampa Bay, which has a LOT of shallow parts, even getting to/from major boat ramps can be relatively shallow, and there are many places that are only a couple of feet deep if you aren't in the channel (which may only be several feet more deep!).

Okay - so what's the difference between the D and the S? I'm guessing "daggerboard" versus "swing-keel"...am I right?
Any other significant differences?

Is there a place where I can get some statistics on these boats? I am concerned about the trailered weight of the boat with all the "stuff" we'll be hauling, not just the boat itself (of course). You all can shed some light on this, I'm sure... Boat weighs 1700 lbs (guessing!) and then you add several hundred pounds of gear, food, ice, fuel, etc... at the moment, we have a six-cylinder Ford Taurus SW - and I'll have a Colorado pickup soon also - and am trying to stay within the towing limits (and especially boat retreival limits!) of these vehicles so I don't have to consider an upgrade just to have a boat... That was my idea behind the smaller boats...

Thanks again...any more input would be appreciated!

[Sumner]

I believe that most people with an S or D figure that the boat, trailer, supplies is going to be at least 3000. Some of that will include the outboard and if you have it on the boat or in the tow vehicle. We tow with 2 outboards on the boat and lots of stuff. I'll bet we are 3500 lbs. ready to go, but that is for a long trip of 3-4 weeks.

The thing is that the 22 with the lead keel weighs the same or close to what a S or D weighs with the water ballast out, which it will be on the trailer. So add supplies to either and you are going to end up with the same weight. We towed 3000 miles round trip last fall to Canada with the single axle and a very heavy boat behind a '99 Suburban. It pulled it fine, but I added a second axle and disc brakes this spring to make the whole deal safer. That trip was over mountain passes (high ones). Where you are I don't see pulling a problem with either vehicle you mentioned.

A second axle and brakes could be added later and some of the Mac trailers did have surge brakes, so you might find a boat that has a trailer with them, but would not let that be the decision maker on the boat.

You have the main difference between the S and D. The D was made to 89 and then the boat became the S in '90 and went with to the swing centerboard. S's tend to bring more money, but I think that is more to do with the fact they are a little newer and not so much the swing centerboard. We wanted the swing centerboard, so limited our search to S's only. If the money was stopping you from picking an S then the D would do fine for you, better than the 22 in my mind if you wanted to overnight on the boat and especially if it was for more than a couple nights.

I spent a lot of time looking at S's and D's here......

http://www.sailingtexas.com/cboats99macgregors.html

....and check my links for a number of boats also to look at and further down in the links or tech links to the different Macs and Ventures.

Good luck,

Sum

Our Trips to ..

Our Mac Pages

Mac-Venture Links

[ChockFullOnuts22]

Actually, Sum, the 26D,S is even lighter than your figures. According to http://www.suite101.com/content/older-m ... ll-a229015 , the loaded trailer weight of a dry 26D, S is "less than 2,000 lbs." Other sources on the web that I found cite figures just above 2,000 lbs. Either way, according to sources found online, the 26D,S is actually a couple hundred pounds lighter on the trailer than the 22 is. Seems paradoxical to have a much bigger boat that is lighter on the trailer, doesn't it?

If the 22 is on the factory (flimsy frame) trailer, the weight isn't as much as 3000 lbs. I think my trailer registration (V2-22) reads 2500 lbs even (with boat on trailer - this is in line with figures found online). Definitely not as high as 3000 lbs. My Mac 25 weighs in at 3000 lbs on the trailer (supposedly based on a weight slip that the prior owner had to get to register the trailer).

My 1997 Blazer 4X4 tows my V2-22 without much of a problem (panic stops incite panic, though...no brakes on trailer). It's a white knuckle ride with the M25, however. Although the 4.3 V6 is plenty powerful enough to haul the weight, the vehicle is too small to handle the weight and length of the 25. If roughly 500 measly pounds makes that big of a difference in towing manners, I can imagine how much nicer the towing manners of a lightweight 26 could be over the 22.

[Sumner]

Actually, Sum, the 26D,S is even lighter than your figures. ............Definitely not as high as 3000 lbs. My Mac 25 weighs in at 3000 lbs on the trailer (supposedly based on a weight slip that the prior owner had to get to register the trailer)........

My 3000 lb guess is the boat, trailer weight, outboard and typical supplies for more than a day trip. I've seen a number of owners report weights of over 3000# for a combined weight. I'm not sure if they were reporting actual scale weights or not. We haven't weighed ours yet, but the axle was bent before we bought it and the bottom of the boat had been hitting the axle. We added even more weight so I put on new springs and increased the shackle length slightly when we went to Canada last summer. We still felt the boat might be hitting on some stretches of road construction where the pavement was gone, so we....



http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner ... -koot.html

....added to the bunks while the boat was in the water there. Also our tires were wearing out on the insides and we bought another set on the trip. All of this led to adding the second axle as we hope to be towing over 6000 miles in the next 12 months. I also added a sub-frame under the stock one and extended the frame back for a third bunk at the back of the boat since we have both outboards on the back of the boat and I'm installing an internal gas tank in the laz.

I agree that a bare boat on a single axle stock trailer will probably come in under 2500 lbs,

Sum

Our Trips to...

Our Mac Pages

Mac-Venture Links

[ChockFullOnuts22]

Wow, yeah, you've done a lot to that trailer! I completely forgot about your second axle when I made my reply post.

[vizwhiz]

I just want to thank you all for the good info and pointers. I'm very interested in pursuing the 26D idea at this point... I just think having the daggerboard option which is raised by a line from the cockpit will work better in the varied and often shallow waters around my stomping grounds...

And thanks for the links Sumner - have been poking around a little on your links out there, and getting good information.
Seems that people get into some major modding of their boats!! Wow!

So I'm interested - seems that on these forums, most posters I've seen seem to have the S model, or previous models that were also swing-keel (22, 25, etc.) - and perhaps it is because "up north" (also a prevailing impression I get of the active posters) the waters are deeper and the banks steeper - lakes, quarries, rivers, etc. that are deep as a general rule...less concern over sailing with a 5-6' draft. Down here, everything is flat and even lakes can be "dishpans" unless you're in the very middle (or in a sinkhole lake). Tampa Bay can go from 8-9 feet deep across many areas to sudden shoals that top out between 3-5 feet, varying widely with tide/time-of-year, wind direction, etc.!

As I was poking around looking at boats for sale, there seem to be LOTS of "S" models, and I've not seen many "D" models at all... Is there a reason that a 26S water-ballast swing-keel would be any more difficult to operate in shallow, flatter waters where I would not always be able to run with the keel all the way down (or down at all)? I'm thinking the D would be better, but I don't want to pass up S opportunities if it won't really make a difference.

By the way, does the 26S keel raise/lower with a line since it isn't weighted as heavily as the weighed swing-keel in the 22 and 25S?

(Sorry to ask so many questions - I'm trying to find answers as I look at different websites, so I'm hoping the "questions curve" will soon intersect with the "answers curve" and I won't have to ask so many!)

[Sumner]

I'm not sure if you are seeing more S's than D's because maybe there were more S's produced. I don't know if that is true or not, seems there are production numbers out there somewhere.

I suggested the D for you over the S since I haven't seen many S's in the price you quoted, but some D's. Actually the S would be better for you than the D if you can afford it. The S centerboard raises and lowers via a control line, but is easy to pull up since it doesn't have the weight of the earlier swing keel boats.

You don't have to be as conscious of the depth with the S as the D. Since the centerboard is not locked down if you hit bottom or something it just swings up and over the object. The D can hit the object and stop the boat and in some instances the boats dagger board has been damaged (one I know of where it broke off) and/or the trunk could be damaged.

What the S and D both have going for them is that with the water ballast the centerboard is not used for righting of the boat, only need to keep the boat moving up wind when tacking. If you aren't tacking are aren't trying to make a lot of headway while tacking the center board can be up in shallow water and the boat is just as stable under sail. The boats before the S and D had to have the swing keel down to keep the boat up under sail unless maybe running.

If you can go the difference money wise I'd get the S in your shallow water. We look forward to bringing our boat down to some of that shallow water hopefully soon,

Sum

Our Trips to...

Our Mac Pages

Mac-Venture Links

[vizwhiz]

Okay...thanks...somehow I was thinking that the swing-keel didn't retract as far as the daggerboard, and the draft would be a bit deeper on the S (maybe less than a foot, but anything's a lot in shallow water), which is why I thought the D was the better option - able to fully retract and get the bottom as shallow drafted as possible... If that is not the case, then yes, the S sounds good...and my options open up!

I appreciate the insight.

Is this an obsession with anyone else, or am I just in denial? Wifey keeps looking at me funny...

We'd be glad to meet up with any/all that come down this way. I'm in sales and my territory covers most of the west coast of Florida - New Port Richey down to Marco Island - so I can usually make arrangements to be on a sales call anywhere along the way there. Let us know when you're coming this way...

[Sumner]

Okay...thanks...somehow I was thinking that the swing-keel didn't retract as far as the daggerboard, and the draft would be a bit deeper on the S (maybe less than a foot, but anything's a lot in shallow water), which is why I thought the D was the better option - able to fully retract and get the bottom as shallow drafted as possible... If that is not the case, then yes, the S sounds good...and my options open up!

I appreciate the insight.

Is this an obsession with anyone else, or am I just in denial? Wifey keeps looking at me funny...

We'd be glad to meet up with any/all that come down this way. I'm in sales and my territory covers most of the west coast of Florida - New Port Richey down to Marco Island - so I can usually make arrangements to be on a sales call anywhere along the way there. Let us know when you're coming this way...

As far as I know they both have the same draft with the boards up. I PM you some links.

We are desperately trying to get the boat ready to leave for down there. We had hoped to be on the road by the first of Oct., but it might be later than that.

We plan to put in here....

http://www.aaboatstorage.com/

...on the west side of Charlotte Harbor. We will launch from there and leave the Suburban and trailer there, but don't plan on returning there until we are ready to take out. It was the cheapest place I could find to leave the vehicles. Once we are on the water are plans are totally open and we have no idea where we will be or when.

We might be able to meet for lunch or something going by Tampa Bay,

Sum

Our Trips to..

Our Mac Pages

Mac-Venture Links