How much is too much?

[CampCook]

Background: I'm a relatively inexperienced sailor with a 26M. I have a lot of flying experience and generally stood down if winds were blowing at or near the crosswind limit of the airplane even if the wind was down the runway. It was a general guideline and was modified if other conditions or situations prevailed. My personal rule kept me safe for 40 years of flying, Now I am sailing and looking for similar guidance.

This morning lake winds are 20 gusting to 35, forecast to be below 5 by noon and then up gusting over 25 in the afternoon and all night. I was going to take my son along to crew and fish for a day of sailing and a night on the hook. Instead, I decided to wait for more favorable conditions. I realize I could have reefed and/or depended on the Honda. I'm not sure if I am being too cautious by standing down. BTW, it is in the low 8o's and CAVU.

So, my questions.
I) at what wind conditions is it best to stay on shore?
2) Are there rules of thumb?
Just trying to learn more from all the experience here.
Dave

[dennisneal]

Dave,

I don't know a thing about lake sailing, but I would not be comfortable with winds gusting to 25-35 (MPH?). If the winds have a long "fetch" they will kick up some waves.

Twenty MPH winds are about my upper limit offshore, provided that the waves are small. It can really be fun to speed along, with a good breeze in your face and sea spray coming over the bow. It can also get exhausting pretty quickly.

I always heed USCG small craft advisories and never even try to venture out if they are posted.

Being at anchor under windy conditions can also be uncomfortable as the Mac will tend to whipsaw back and forth. You may worry about whether or not your anchor is still secure, (I do.). So, you might not get much sleep.

I think you made the right choice. I may be on the conservative side. There are plenty of sailing days ahead. And, as you gain more experience, you will find your own comfort limits.

[mastreb]

In my opinion its more about the seas than the winds. I'm not going to go out in 30 knot winds, but we rarely see that kind of weather here in southern California. Also consider that the offshore winds I'm talking about are >extremely< consistent. We do not get puffs or gusts here really at all. You can set sails to the wind and be pretty much guaranteed that they will not change direction or speed rapidly at all, so take my advice with a considerable grain of salt if this is not how your gusts behave.

I routinely sail in 20 knot winds, reefing as necessary to keep the heel down to 20 degrees. Often that's little more than a small swatch of jib. We will frequently heel well over on a new point, and I'll reef down to 15..20 degrees and keep it that way until we tack again. With the ballast full I don't think its possible to blow down a Mac (at least not as laden as ours generally is).

Seas are the big variable offshore here in Socal. With the same wind and weather, we could see anything from flat water to six foot swells. My basic "eyeball" rule is whitecaps: If I see whitecaps everywhere, we'll sail in the harbor rather than the open ocean. I've been out in following six-foot seas, and while I don't mind it, it's pretty terrifying for my young crew and the admiral.

Macs do have high windage but with the sales down there's nothing the wind is going to throw at you that the motor can't compensate for if you know what you're doing.

And worst case, wear a life jacket and carry a floating DSC VHF radio clipped to your belt

[pokerrick1]

I think you made the right choice. I may be on the conservative side. There are plenty of sailing days ahead. And, as you gain more experience, you will find your own comfort limits.

The above advice from the sage (and very old) Dennis Neal is as good as you'll get. I sailed out of Marina Del Ray (as Dennis does) and the first time the boat heeled to about 25 degrees I ran to West Marine for a harness system to keep me in the boat. The salesman, when he realized I was a new sailor, told me "fuhrgetaboudit" you'll get comfortable soon. I didn't believe him cause it scared me so much.

Subsequently, I deliberately heeled the boat to past 40 degrees just for the thrill of it (wearing a life jacket of course). He was right, I found a comfort level I never thought I would. So will you. Continue to use your pilot's mentality of safety for now and you will be laughing about that soon

Rick

[Ixneigh]

You made the right call.
Even 35 MPH and not KNOTS I would not attemp to sail anywhere except maaaaaybe down wind.
If your boat has the stock msinsail reefing setup, it is ABYSMAL. This boat needs a good, tight, neatly reefed sail to get anywhere in windy conditions, and in stiff chop its a write off anyway. I had a local sailmaker put in three extra reefing eyes, and intalled the ties, so I can tie up the left over sail neatly. I installed a block on the aft end of the boom, plus a line led forward along the boom, so I can pull down the aft reefing grommet of the mainsail right from by the halyard. Good usable reefing is an absolute must on this boat. In 35k i would use the motor, stay in shallow water and look for a sheltered area to anchor. I would not go out in it on a lark. IHMO 20-25 is the upper limit on this boat. And not at night unless you know the boat really really well.
An old wag states: a boat can no longer go to weather effectively in any wind stronger then her waterline length. I have found this to be true for every boat ive ever owned. H-23, venture22.2, Tavana 33 (a powerful no nonsense yawl)
And esp the Mac26

Ive achored in 25 and its not bad in protected waters. But im used to it because i spend alot of time on the hook.

Sailing with kids should be kept light and fun, least till they get used to it. One horrid trip early on might put them off sailing forever.

Ixneigh

[CampCook]

Thanks everyone for all the good advice. I stayed in and wondered around noon when the wind died to almost nothing. But right on schedule it is backup to forecast this evening and expected to hit 30+mph by midnight. It would have been restless night in a rock walled canyon with a long scope. Once again discretion betters valor...
Dave

[Catigale]

Just wanted to add to the kudos for good judgement. As Matt pointed out above, gusts of 35 on a lake are more dangerous than a steady 35 offshore.

An upgraded main with two reef points would be good in such winds. Search delevi for Leons discussions of sailing San Fran bay in high winds on his

[Russ]

All the comments above are excellent.

Simple rule of thumb: If you aren't comfortable out there, listen to yourself.

Frankly, I just don't like the howl of a lot of wind in my ears. It's not fun to be out in heavy stuff. Plus, the wave action makes for less fun.

[bscott]

We sail Lake Granby @ 8,250' in Colorado--beautiful but dangerous if unprepared.

The biggest danger of this lake is a "reverse wind" knock down. This typically occurs in the late afternoon when the wind reverses direction--sometimes with a vengence. 3-4' white caps in a matter of minutes. If you sail rocky canyons be aware of steep chop from waves bouncing off steep shorelines and hitting incoming waves. If you get too close to shore the Mac has a hard time tacking due to the confused waves and high freeboard--my engine is in the water at an idle, just in case.

I don't sail when the wind is forecasted to be 20 mph + as I know it will most likely intensify. High elevation lakes are also prone to sudden rain/hail and lightening storms so NOAA radio is a must with one weather eye constantly on watch.
I keep my "foulies" at the ready and put the pants on at the first hint of rain. One less item for me to deal with when the weather turns.

If I am single handing or have an inexperienced crew I go out with a reefed main. We all wear PFDs, all the time, and practice MOB. Learn and practice how to "hove to" as part of a MOB. Rather safe than sorry.

I gave up racing a Capri 25 in favor of a Mac so I could exercise my ability to become a comfortable cabin cruiser and enjoy the lake in all weather conditions.

You did the right thing---Have fun with your new toy

Bob

[puggsy]

The wind off southern Western Australia are mostly strong steady sou-west at about 25 -30 knots during the summer...with the odd very gusty easterly thrown in...When i had my MAC [ sob sob ] is mostly used a good SMALL mainsail [ 7 metres x 2 metres ] fully battened, off my previous 20 footer...and although no greyhound, there was never a need to reef the sail...if it got a bit strong, she would just lay over a bit and spill [ the wind]...I thought that the 9 metre main was always a bit too big for our conditions...Roger obviously planned the boat based on USA lake sailing, and not ocean conditions.
Lets be honest here...the is a nice caravan on the water...anyone who wants speed would buy another type...
If ever i have the chance to get into another I will fit it with a 7 metre mast and matching mainsail and matching furler, so I can go in and out of the Swan river without EVER having to lower the mast...and put up with the lesser speed...
and...p.s. change the mast base to a solid tabernacle with the tilt point 2 foot off the deck...