Daggerboard vs Centerboard

[Red Coat]

I am sure this question has been asked before and I did look through the search mode, but I am still confused.

As I am on the hunt to purchase a used Mac and have been driving my wife crazy with surfing the net and reading all I can about different types of Macs I am a little bewildered regarding the change back to a daggerboard with "M" after leaving it behind over a decade ago with the "D" model and promoting the "S" & "X" centerboard as the way to go.

Now the "M" brouchure slams the centerboard system "The vertical retracting daggerboard has major advantages over a centerboard that swings back into the hull." & "Unlike daggerboards, centerboards require lots of care and maintenance , and involve underwater metal lines and holes throught the hull"...

What gives? If the centerboard system was so bad why did they abandon the daggerboard in the first place?

Reading the threads I noted several concerns about boats losing their daggerboards, this does not sound like an improvement.

Why did MacGregor abandon the centerboard concept, was it the right thing to do?

Another question I have is, I note that the early "M" models have the galley beside the daggerboard and now they have moved it to the sliding port side thing. Why was this done and is it a good thing?

I know these kinds of questions have the potential to cause brother to take up arms against brother and I am not trying to rehash old stuff or cause an international incident, but as a newbee in research mode I would appreciate some advice.

Thanks

Larry

[Duane Dunn, Allegro]

The return to the daggerboard is a nod to better sailing performance. It gives a cleaner underwater profile. When the centerboard is lowered it leaves an open cavity on the bottom that increases drag. The return to the daggerboard was in response to the constant complaints Roger got that the X was a slow sailboat.

Of course the return to the dagger board also brought back the problems it adds which were many of the reasons they went to the swinging centerboard. That trunk running through the middle of the cabin pretty much ruins any shot at a nice open interior like you find on an X. It's a difficult feature to try and integrate into the interior design of a small boat. Many also don't like it as it doesn't give if you hit something while the centerboard will swing up out of the way. You do have more maintenance with the swinging board. You have to tend to the lifting line/cable and the pivot bolt.

The first shot at the M layout for 03 and 04 was a return to what basically was the old D interior. This had the galley crosswise on the starboard side between the trunk and the hull with the head behind. While good for an attempt at an open interior, if you really want to use the galley for cooking it's a pretty poor location. You can only stand in front of half of it, the seat forces you to kneel at the outboard part. It also has next to zero storage in it. Many who saw the M's also complained about the table. While it was nice and central, it was completely in the way of both the galley and the passage forward when in the up position.

This led the factory to create the 05 floor plan which is a hybrid of the early M and the older X. It's actually a return even further back in time to the layout they used in the M-25. It keeps the head forward ala the M, gives you a dinnete to starboard, ala the X, and puts the galley to port like the X. However the galley now slides fore and aft letting you open up the interior more like the early M was.

All the layouts are a compromise in small boats like these. My personal take is the new 05 layout is much more practical than the original 03/04. The original was best for a couple and was also a nice day sailing layout. It would never work for someone like me making extended cruises with a family of 5. The new layout is better. No longer are all the activities centered in a single space. Kids can be playing at the table while someone cooks at the galley. You can get to the head without having to lower the table or crawl over the seat. For a party you can slide the galley aft out of the way for extra seating.

Having the sliding galley actually makes the boat able to suit a larger audience. A cruiser like me would probably have it screwed down permanently forward. Someone who does a combination of day sailing and cruising will slide it around as needed. Those who just want a party boat can just take it out altogether and open up the space.

[baldbaby2000]

The dagger board is better for reasons mentioned. I thought the Macgregor went to the swing keel on the old 26 because people were breaking them. Maybe I'm wrong. John at Supersport Marine told me that in a pinch a usable board for the 26M could be made out of plywood. I'm told the board is pretty strong but I'm considering making a spare just in case.

My wife wouldn't even consider the older 26M layout. When she saw the new layout it was an easy sell. Personally I would probably settle for a fixed galley but she really likes the ability to slide it out of the way. They actually have real slides; not like the Mac 25 were there were 2 bolts sticking out of the galley bottom that one would place in a set of holes to hold it in place. It worked but was a little cheezy.

The only thing I don't like about the galley setup is that it's a hassle to fill the water tank which is in the galley. I'm going to try to figure out a way to put it under the seat when I get done with all the other stuff we need to do. Either that or design a way to fill it from outside the galley. Otherwise it has to be pulled out.

Our opinion: We both really like the boat.

BB $ BB's Wife

[Richard O'Brien]

I've been on the rocks once with my daggerboard and once into the sand and gravel. I couldn't get my substitute 9.8 hp motor started and drifted against a rocky breakwater. I was actually hauling my rudders up , and forgot about the board. It chipped a dime sized piece out of the gelcoat, but other than that it was kinda like banging into the rocks with any bottom. Pretty much no big deal. Grab the rope and haul . A couple of seconds later it was the hull itself washing against the rocks. I've heard of people breaking them, but you'd have to hit it sideways pretty hard I think. Now I have a depth finder , and I try to stay a little more aware. That was perhaps my 2nd time out. I Think The daggerboard simplicity works for me. Easy to repair, or substitute.

[Jim Bunnell]

I lost the centerboard on my early (2003) M. I don't think it broke, but the early boats did not have a back-up retaining line to the board. As far as I could tell, the board twisted/stretched out of the slot and then either failed at the top where the line went through or the pressure simply popped the knot through the board. The line was intact, including the knot, when I looked at it. I heard it banging against the bottom of the hull for several moments before it seperated, so I'm fairly sure the failure occured after it exited the slot. By the way, MacGregor replaced it with a board rigged with a safty line under warrenty.

[Moe]

As Duane says, the daggerboard trunk in the middle of a small cabin presents a huge interior design problem.

With the 2005M, it blocks off the end of the forward dinette seat, meaning the table had to be made narrower to allow occupants to squeeze between it and the trunk to get into the forward seat. The two people sitting on the forward dinette seat are squeezed in between the bulkhead and daggerboard trunk, so they had better be skinny people.

By putting the forward dinette seat there, this pushed the whole dinette aft. This put the aft dinette seat back where the head used to be in the X, and the aft dinette seat had to be made much narrower than the X's more forward aft dinette seat to clear the ladder. So the dinette is only suitable for 2 skinny and 1 husky adults, or 2 skinny adults and 2 small children, and they have less table width. Amusingly, Roger has upgraded the dinette from seating 4 to seating 5.

Moving the head forward of the dinette, means that the short V-berth can no longer be extended by using the forward dinette seat. The V-berth is much less practical for adults sleeping there. While the port side could be extended, that would put the port sleeper's head in the head door, requiring the starboard sleeper to crawl over him to go to the head at night.

It also meant that people on the forward port seating are either looking at the head or the centerboard trunk, and cannot even see those on the forward dinette seat. To deal with this loss of conversational seating, the galley was made to slide aft.

The dinette could be moved forward and the head put back aft in the daggerboard M. This would allow use of the forward dinette seat to extend the V-berth, and allow the aft dinette seat and table to be restored to their original width. But now the forward dinette seat would have to be made narrower for those sitting on the forward dinette seat to squeeze by the trunk, and the conversational area with those on the forward port seating would be blocked by the trunk.



The only way to fix the interior problem with the M, and restore the 26 to it's open spacious feeling, is to return to the swinging centerboard and eliminate the daggerboard trunk.



--
Moe

[Moe]

The 03/04 still looks as small as the 05, because of the head breaking up the open space. MacGregor tried to create an illusion of space with the mirror on the head wall, but it doesn't work for us.

The 03/04 table was in the worst possible place, blocking not only passage fore and aft in the boat, but access to the galley as well.

Even without the table in place, working at the galley required standing with the left leg and kneeling on the seat with the right.

The 03/04 had no storage for a cooler. There was a cut-out in the rear berth cushion for it, essentially eliminating sleeping on that side.

The one advantage the 03/04 had over the 05 was that the shelf for the Porta-Potti was removable. Otherwise, it was one of the worst interior designs MacGregor ever did. When my wife saw it, she said, "It's obvious a woman had no input on this." MacGregor didn't take long in addressing the problem.

--
Moe

[Duane Dunn, Allegro]

Moe,

Bluewater is adding a nice feature to the 05 table. They cut it in half and put in a piano hinge that runs front to back. This let's it flip up and fold over to starboard reducing it's size by half and making entry into the front seat much easier. It is in essence a nice coffee table when folded and opens up the space. Todds excecution of this good idea leaves a bit to be desired, but I wouldn't be surprised to see the factory include this feature in the next revision. What I don't like is you have to clear the table to open or close the table. I would go with a slightly off center hinge that when flipped closed leaves a 3" clear space along the hull. That way you could keep cup holders and other table stuff in place wit hthe table open or closed and wouldn't have to move the stuff to make the change.

The 05 boat is a much better boat for real cruisers and anyone who spends more than a few hours on board at a time. Yet the head is still just slightly better than useless. Take the 05 hull, put the centerboard back on and put the head back where you can get real standing room ala the X as your picture shows and you will have a very nice boat. Oh, and fix the silly only fold up rudders that stick out all the time just asking to get broken. While your at it, ditch the traveler as it seems to add little to the sailing performance and the price of not having a floor level entry to the cabin is to high. Make the door bigger!

[Moe]

While your at it, ditch the traveler as it seems to add little to the sailing performance and the price of not having a floor level entry to the cabin is to high. Make the door bigger!

Yep... getting the companionway door lower will be necessary to have a fold-up ladder without a hinge in the middle of it. Getting the door lower and elminating the traveler and step will sure open up the cockpit sole.
--
Moe

[Jim Bunnell]

The 03~04 M model has the same mainsheet attachment at the helm station that the older X model

Unless I misunderstand you, you're mistaken - at least in reference to my 03, which uses the traveller by the cabin entrance.

[Frank C]

. . . Yep... getting the companionway door lower will be necessary to have a fold-up ladder without a hinge in the middle of it. Getting the door lower and elminating the traveler and step will sure open up the cockpit sole. . .

But the new companionway design on the 26M (technically a bridgedeck) was likely in response to FM's continuing worldwide campaign, insisting that the boat is ocean-crossing, blue-water, world-cruising capable!

On the 26X, the Cap't who finds himself pooped by a large "ocean" wave (during transit to Hawaii, no doubt) will note with alarm that the cockpit full of water is quite happy to drain mostly down the companionway, rather than out across the transom. The path of least resistance is obvious.

Ocean-capable boats simply DO NOT have the companionway entry set at transom height. They always have a much higher bridgedeck, a "step up" before decending into the cabin. Yes, it's a mid-hull OBSTACLE every time you move into the cabin, but you'll appreciate it on that next ocean crossing. In my case, the 26X won't be at risk of such an ocean wave, so I'll happily accept the risks And should I ever find myself mid-ocean, I'll cut the hatch cover in half and keep the lower half inserted as my bridgedeck.