Daggerboard vs Centerboard

[Duane Dunn, Allegro]

My hatchboard is cut in three sections so I can protect the cabin as the sea's dictate. Even better these store under the seat back closing off the back of the cockpit. If I'm ever anywhere near conditions that would poop the cockpit I'd be in major trouble with the admiral.

[Moe]

And if we did wind up in those conditions that might poop the cockpit, we'd be in the cockpit, with the hatch board in place and the hatch closed over it.

--
Moe

[Frank C]

And if we did wind up in those conditions that might poop the cockpit, we'd be in the cockpit, with the hatch board in place and the hatch closed over it . . .

Except that "conditions" may sometimes be deceiving. I started a "stupid boat tricks" topic to describe the day I got pooped ....

[HERNDON]

Sneaker waves?

[Greg]

Rogue waves happen!

Greg

[Pouw Geuzebroek]

But now the forward dinette seat would have to be made narrower for those sitting on the forward dinette seat to squeeze by the trunk, and the conversational area with those on the forward port seating would be blocked by the trunk

.
Moe, I see your still working on the perfect M I gave it another thought and left the Centerboard option because I think you're right Roger will never come back on that one for a long time.
I think we can leave the width of the forward dinette seat as in the X, by just making the table flip up like Duane describes. Would it not be possible to make the trunk transparent so we can see thru it, that would solve your blocked view problem. There would not be any water in it would there? Otherwise it would be a nice fish tank so the kids can enjoy watching any fish that dare to swim in.

[Chip Hindes]

...left the Centerboard option because I think you're right Roger will never come back on that one for a long time.

That's almost funny except that it's also sad. Roger is a salesman first and foremost. We know from experience he won't hesitate to contradict today something he said yesterday if a new market analysis or revised cost criteria demand it.

I think he'd be perfectly comfortable with bringing back the centerboard, non carpeted interior, fixed dinette, enclosed head with sink, and any number of other apparently popular items which diasappeared when the M was fielded. Cripes, in Rogerspeak even the fact the standard M has no jib is an improvement. Pretty soon he'll be trying to convince everyone the higher price is an improvement.

He doesn't even have to come up with new reasons, he can just recycle the same ones he used originally for having all these in the X.

[Mark Prouty]

I think you're right Roger will never come back on that one for a long time.

Why, how about a telescoping daggerboard.

[Terry]

As far as interior layout goes I believe it is more of a matter of different strokes for different folks and what your needs are as opposed to what is inferior or superior. I have an 03 M and I would not trade it for an 05M ever. It makes much more efficient use of available space. I like the spacious, cavernous size of the early M's. I am a fairly large individual 6' 220lbs with broad shoulders and the very first thing I noticed aboard the 05M was the restriction of movement. I suddenly felt very claustrophobic and realized I would have to be a contortionist to squeeze my large frame into the aft berth with all the new obstacles in the way. I talked to some new 05M owners and they have already expressed their desire to sleep in the forward berth due to the constrained access to the rear berth, very much like the constrained access in the X models. I have no problem bunking down in the rear berth with it's open layout in the 03M. As far as the galley goes, it is childs play to just sit beside it, turn on the flame and heat up a kettle or pot and use the sink, it is a peice of cake. I can only surmise that a person who has to put one knee on the starboard seat to use the stove must also pull a chair up to the kitchen stove in their home to put their knee on also. I can reach all four elements on my kitchen stove while standing to one side of the stove easily and without the use of something to put my knee on. I have used my M for two summers now and find the layout very user freindly (with the exception Head) and would not have it any other way. Besides, I do most of my cooking and eating out in the cockpit. As for the head, well I don't fit in there, a gatorade bottle works quite well, and I have only had that other emergency happen once and it only required keeping the door open to accommodate my knees. I plan to remove the little shelf and install the porta-pottie on the floor. As someone else mentioned every layout is a compromise, what works for some folks may not work for others.
I do like the wood frames around the windows though and plan to get them installed on mine, also like the stern arch for the mast crutch as I have already experienced a pedestal failure from the forces of the mast. (the weld bead that joins the flange to the post failed) You get what you pay for. Still love my 03M though!

[Andy26M]

I have to agree that everyone has their own preferences and while debates like this are useful, rarely will they prevail over our own opinions I much prefer my 2004 M to the X or 2005M layouts. It's all about personal preference and taste.

I find the muted colors in the M to be much more pleasing than the stark white and smoked plastic of the X.

When I first read about the layout of the new 2005 model M's I had the sinking feeling that I had bought a year too early and was already planning an upgrade strategy - until I actually got onto a 2005M at a boat show. I quickly did an about face and am now extremely happy that I bought when I did. IMHO (we all have an opinion lol) my 2004 has far, far more useable space below than the 2005 does. The narrowness of those dinette seats on the 2005M essentially limits them to one adult in my mind, maybe an adult and a child, provided both mind their elbows very well.

The sliding galley is a nice innovation, but it takes up an awful lot of space imho.

Regarding the traveler - I use the heck out of mine and it very clearly has a useful and significant effect on sail shape. Is it perfect? No. But it is a massive improvement over having the mainsheet stuck amidships, especially in view of the fact that there is no backstay to adjust on an M. You simply have to learn to put the tools available to best use. As to the seat blocking half of what would be the cabin entrance, well, I have been on boats with huge companionways and boats with tiny ones - in my case I never even thought about it as an issue, and now I am simply used to it being the way it is - I never notice the "small" companionway, I just go through it. INHO a lot of the reason people seize on this type of feature is because they are used to what they have and so it seems to big very noticeable, but if you actually switched you'd get used to the difference pretty fast (exception being if you are limited in mobility for some reason and have trouble with the ladder - but if that is the case, then you're not gonna like a lot of 30-35 footers either...)

In short, I love my Mac and I am sure that the one I bought was the right one - for me and only me. I'm just glad there are so many choices so that we can all find boats that meet our individual wants/needs!

- AndyS

[Moe]

I think it's becoming apparent to Roger that the M will only sell about half as many units as the X, and that the '05 upgrade hasn't fixed that. It also appears to me that even at the original higher price of the M, there weren't enough units sold to provide enough net sales dollars to cover overhead and generate a reasonable profit. So even though it may cost him a little demand, I believe Roger had to raise the price $1,000 this January to generate a larger per unit contribution to overhead, given the lower number of units when compared to the X. Perhaps, given that he's older and heading toward retirement, he may be happy with a smaller company building many fewer units.

--
Moe

[Mark Prouty]

In short, I love my Mac and I am sure that the one I bought was the right one - for me and only me. I'm just glad there are so many choices so that we can all find boats that meet our individual wants/needs!

- AndyS

Dang it Moe!

Owners of the M are really happy with them. I was inches from buying one myself. They are nicer than the X in many ways. Bill at Boats4Sail is selling them as soon as he gets them.

I think you're speculating on three points:
1. That it's becoming apparent to Roger that the M will only sell about half as many units as the X, and that the '05 upgrade hasn't fixed that.

2. At the original higher price of the M, there weren't enough units sold to provide enough net sales dollars to cover overhead and generate a reasonable profit.

3. Even though it may cost him a little demand, Roger had to raise the price $1,000 this January to generate a larger per unit contribution to overhead, given the lower number of units when compared to the X.

Could you be correct on this point:
Perhaps, given that he's older and heading toward retirement, he may be happy with a smaller company building many fewer units.

Are there other factors playing into the lower production that we are not aware of. Did Roger raise the price because of demand?

I happen to agree with you on everything your suggest for improving the M and for your reasons for buying an X but under different life circumstances, I wouldn't hesitate to buy an M. Expecially from Bill.

With the boys, I'd sure spray carpet protection in that head.

[argonaut]

Mark... There is an electric, though not telescoping, centerboard as an option on the Seaward 26.


I like simple systems so an electro-mechanical centerboard sounds like something I'd avoid. I'd think that a telescoping foil would be easily fouled too, nothing like having your centerboard stuck in one position.

An electric foil also gives you two reasons to be sorry when your battery croaks!