Engine oil etec

[bscott]

Brian, I am a veteran of "oil wars" in snowmobile racing (BRP Rotax 800HO) and fully understand oil aftermarket manufacturer's claims of low price and superior "arm wrenching" performance.

Currently Amsoil and Sierra claim they have cloned the BRP XD-100 but caution E-tec owners to use their product only after the warranty period has ended to avoid any possible warranty litigation. No where do they state "approved for use in E-tec engines" on their labels. The cost of these clone oils are comparable to XD-100 so it doesn't make sense to use them unless in an emergency when XD-100 is unavailable in the neighborhood.

Ron, if an E-tec fails during the warranty period and it is determined that a clone oil was used and BRP refused to warranty the failure, who would you sue? The clone oil manufacturer that advertised "compatible for E-tec use" Or BRP?
BTW, in order to sue BRP the damages must exceed $20,000.

Brian, as you stated, the electronics of the E-tec monitor and control all gas and oil functions giving the E-tec exceptional power, fuel economy and green exhaust in a very small light weight package. To accomplish this BRP developed an oil formula specifically engineered as an integral component that would allow the engine to run cleanly with power @ 80:1 exhausting less pollution than typical 50:1 mixtures. I would think the E-tec detractors on this 4M would appreciate the positive environmental steps BRP has made to reduce our waterway noise and exhaust pollution especially since we, the E-tec owners, have the option to spend our oil money as we choose.

Forum rules will not allow me to honestly answer your last oil question

Bob

[Catigale]

I don’t believe there’s any dispute that the XD engine setting consumes oil at a lower rate (is there?) – that’s pretty much accepted, given the number of people who have experienced it first-hand.

So I don’t see how, based on what you are saying, that it can make sense that the “same” (ie. that of a competitor’s) oil could be used for both settings. Sorry I’m not intelligent enough to see it. Would you mind explaining to me how that might work?

I don't see any evidence comparing users of ETEC oil with the engine set at XD and users of other oil with the engine set at XD, so I dont accept the premise that XD saves you oil. I do agree The cost of ownership between the two oils is not significant even if the XD costs roughly 1.6x, I'm guessing it would take years to go thRough a gallon of either.

[raycarlson]

Seahouse I can assure you your engines ECM cannot detect the composition of the oil going through your engine or record what brand or spec of oil it was,could BRP pull a sample and have it sent out? sure they could.Being as i run a nissan TLDI which also requires "special oil",i use the pennzoil synthetic but if you would take a photo or post the specifications on your jug of XD-100 i would be happy to help find you a suitable replacement that meets their requirements.sorry to seem condescending it just burns me up when i see high dollar marketing techniques these corparations use to decieve and manipulate the innocent and gullible masses in the name of ever higher profit margins.And yes Mr.Catigale is right there is no better system around but greed wasn't a requirement for a succesful company until recently it seems,soon when the majority of customers are priced out of their market they will have no one left to profit from,or at least their market base will be so small the company won't be able to survive.By the way theirs nothing wrong with brand loyalty, I like high tech also,I personnally picked the nissan/tohutsu line because of their world wide dommination,along with yamaha you can go to any spot on the globe and find their motors in use and good parts availability and also meet all the upcoming pollution standards we're facing here in the USA with their TLDI direct computer controlled injection which i beleive BRP copied kind of,but thats just my opinion and we all know about opinions.

[aya16]

At 38 dollars a gallon, or there abouts for the optimax oil for my engine, and the fact, that gallon lasted two years, I stick with the oil recommended by merc.
I don't need to get a pro opinion, look real close at after market oils labels, or need to know what ratio the engine computer mixes my oil. I dont need to take a chance with warranty, or any other potential problems that may happen because I used a 25 dollar oil. Same for the etec, use what they say to use and forget it.

If finding the oil is a problem, then buy two gallons when you do find it, and in a couple years buy two more. The oil, engine manufactures recommend is the stuff they found best for your engine, By using a different brand, we not only may cause some warranty problems, but other problems like spark plug failure.

By posting and asking a question about what oil to use, means someone isn't sure, and now may put their engine in harms way on the word of a stranger. Just use what evinrude recommends, even if you can save 15-20 a gallon in a year, I can buy a lot of oem oil, for the price of shortening the life of my 20 dollar's each spark plugs.

Use what it says in the manual, if that oil is not available any more than the question should go to evinrude directly of what to use. Engine manufacturers don't just go to an oil company and ask them to slap a special label on what ever they have, and sell it to us for lots more money. I'm not saying after market oil is bad, just why use it? The price of three mocha lattes you save doesn't justify taking a chance.
Mike

[bscott]

Seahouse I can assure you your engines ECM cannot detect the composition of the oil going through your engine or record what brand or spec of oil it was,could BRP pull a sample and have it sent out? sure they could.Being as i run a nissan TLDI which also requires "special oil",i use the pennzoil synthetic but if you would take a photo or post the specifications on your jug of XD-100 i would be happy to help find you a suitable replacement that meets their requirements.sorry to seem condescending it just burns me up when i see high dollar marketing techniques these corparations use to decieve and manipulate the innocent and gullible masses in the name of ever higher profit margins.And yes Mr.Catigale is right there is no better system around but greed wasn't a requirement for a succesful company until recently it seems,soon when the majority of customers are priced out of their market they will have no one left to profit from,or at least their market base will be so small the company won't be able to survive.By the way theirs nothing wrong with brand loyalty, I like high tech also,I personnally picked the nissan/tohutsu line because of their world wide dommination,along with yamaha you can go to any spot on the globe and find their motors in use and good parts availability and also meet all the upcoming pollution standards we're facing here in the USA with their TLDI direct computer controlled injection which i beleive BRP copied kind of,but thats just my opinion and we all know about opinions.

Ray, I'm still waiting for your list of oil mfrs that conform to XD-100 specs that won't void the warranty at 1/2 the price. BTW, BRP purchased the Ficht DI from OMC in 1999. They totally redesigned the engine using a single low pressure 30psi DI pump and DI oil injection and renamed it E-TEC. Tohatsu uses a higher pressure 80psi DI that requires two pumps. So NO, BRP did not copy Tohatsu. Ray, you need to get your facts straight.

Bob

[seahouse]

Ray –

Go back and read my previous post more closely. I didn’t say it could tell what brand or spec, but it can tell when the wrong spec oil is used. I assumed that anyone making a warrantee claim, though not smart enough to use the correct spec'd oil in the first place, would be smart enough to drain the tank of the offending oil (an act, which in itself, is sheepishly declaring that the oils are in fact, different). But a chemical analysis would be unnecessary, as the temperature readings and other parameters would locate the point in time when the improper oil stopped doing its job.

A sequence of events happens before an engine failure, and that unique sequence forms a “fingerprint” in the measured parameters that can lead investigators back to the original cause. Be certain that the engine designers have experimentaly seen engine failure in the lab that happens from the incorrect oil, and would be able to recognize it again.

Such parameters are measured in internal combustion airplane engines and can detect that a particular cylinder failure is impending long before the failure actually occurs. Actually, precisely these type of engine monitoring instruments are made locally in our little town of 30,000.

Hey Cat –

You realize that you’re claiming that the two engine settings are the same then? I don’t believe that will pan out to be the case. It defies logic.

Hey Bob!-

So the “clones” have already hit the market, then. There must be lots of Evinrudes out there now!

One thing I will observe, both from this and previous E-tec threads, is that, in spite of the data, the number of people who are incredulous at what these engines do (auto-fog, emissions, oil system, data recording and output etc, etc, etc ). I think that any product that does what people believe cannot be done, is being underscored by them as being a success.

I would also point out that the auto makers tried to make us believe that the performance, safety, emission, and (particularly) fuel mileage figures being put out by most cars today was deemed by them to be “impossible” to achieve just over a decade ago. And it is expected (mandated actually) to make equal gains again over the next decade +.

Better living through technology.

- Brian.

[Catigale]

Hey Cat –

You realize that you’re claiming that the two engine settings are the same then? I don’t believe that will pan out to be the case. It defies logic.

No such claim made. The relevant comparison is:

Engine set by dealer (not Macgregor) at XD setting.

Oil usage with ETEC XD = ??

Oil usage with another brand TC3W = ??

My conjecture is that the oil usage and performance will be the same...and the 'other brand' costs about 60% as much as ETEC oil. Overall cost of ownership difference for oil is negligible however. You either buy the 'its designed for the engine' pitch or you don't...personal choice. Marine engine companies do spend 97x more on marketing than on tribology according to wikipedia..

[Ixneigh]

Ummmmm -drags the record needle across with a SCRAAAATCHING sound-

Ok. The saga so far. I found the BLUE tag on the boat saying it had been programmed for xd 100. Fine go to the dealer 20 miles away and buy three gallons. As open up the engine I noticed that there is a yellow tag that says xd50, 30 or tcw-3. I never noticed that tag before. The last time I put oil in it was rough and I was just trying not to spill it.
I call the dealer and THEY say bring back the xd100 and exchange it, and absolutely don't continue to run the west marine store brand (!)
So before I go I loom in the manual and call tech support USA. In three minutes a very nice guy on the phone says:
I can and should run the xd100 whatever the setting the motor has and that he runs xd 100 in his even though it's set for the xd50, 30, or tcw-3 because of the better protecting in cold temps and it smokes less.
He further stated that the xd100 ONLY engine setting saves about fifteen percent oil usage.

End of oil question. I will burn the xd100, and wonder how the blue tag that started all this ever got on the boat.

Ixneigh

[Crikey]

and it smokes less.

Ixneigh

I quit smoking last June when we got our . and our labeless four stroke.
The price our Admirals make us pay....

I still dream in two stroke however

[bscott]

Ummmmm -drags the record needle across with a SCRAAAATCHING sound-

Ok. The saga so far. I found the BLUE tag on the boat saying it had been programmed for xd 100. Fine go to the dealer 20 miles away and buy three gallons. As open up the engine I noticed that there is a yellow tag that says xd50, 30 or tcw-3. I never noticed that tag before. The last time I put oil in it was rough and I was just trying not to spill it.
I call the dealer and THEY say bring back the xd100 and exchange it, and absolutely don't continue to run the west marine store brand (!)
So before I go I loom in the manual and call tech support USA. In three minutes a very nice guy on the phone says:
I can and should run the xd100 whatever the setting the motor has and that he runs xd 100 in his even though it's set for the xd50, 30, or tcw-3 because of the better protecting in cold temps and it smokes less.
He further stated that the xd100 ONLY engine setting saves about fifteen percent oil usage.

End of oil question. I will burn the xd100, and wonder how the blue tag that started all this ever got on the boat.

Ixneigh

It is good to know that your original question has been answered and the mystery solved

I'm not sure what mode my engine is as it does not have any tags--but it does not matter as I have used XD-100 from the start--funding the coffers of the greedy capitalist BRP--I'm taking mine to the dealer for the 3 yr/300hr service and I will find out--no sleepless nights for me

Bob

[raycarlson]

well i'm glad the original posters Q got answered and we all had fun doing it.

[seahouse]

Hey Bob -

Makes good sense- you can't lose by using the XD-100 oil with either setting. But of course if you're using the XD-100 you might as well take advantage of the XD setting. I had an idea that running XD-100 oil on the regular setting was suggested for heavy-duty hauling applications for maximum protection, but I have been unable to find that anywhere in the manual.

Did you check for a blue tag on the fuel line at the fuel filter? On mine it was on the starboard side when you remove the engine bonnet. This whole thing is confusing - there should be ONE location only somewhere where anyone can look and determine which oils they can use. If you don't find a tag , that sure doesn't help, does it(?)

Hey Cat -

To set the record straight; you can use "anybody's" TC-W3 oil at the normal setting, the owner's manual says that's OK. The risk warning does come when you use "anybody's" TC-W3 oil when on the XD-100 setting. That's the no-no.

So they certainly are not attempting to "scare" you into excluding the use of non-BRP branded oils to sell you more of their own brand. In essence, quite the opposite - they are actually encouraging you to use the competitor's oil (if you must) on a setting that will consume it at a higher rate!

- Brian.

[Catigale]

Okay I got it finally...

Of course, any saving on the setting is offset by the extra oil used lubing the gate latch.....

[seahouse]

Cat -- . back!
- B. (read facetiously!)

[bscott]

Hey Bob -


Did you check for a blue tag on the fuel line at the fuel filter? On mine it was on the starboard side when you remove the engine bonnet. This whole thing is confusing - there should be ONE location only somewhere where anyone can look and determine which oils they can use. If you don't find a tag , that sure doesn't help, does it(?)
:

- Brian.

NO, the last time I filled the tank was in sunny/warm/dry August--no tags. If I were to lift the bonnet to check for tags now I'd have to scrape the ice off of it and I need a break from XD-100 BS

How about a new thread about "What octane gas should I use in my E-tec?" OR, "Where can I get aftermarket stickers/decals for my E-tec>" OR "MY white E-tec is faster than your Blue E-tec?":D

Bob