Outboard Questions

[Moe]

Working to improve my outboard comparison chart...

I've added CARB rating, cam/valve info, and charging output, which was interesting.

But I need some unpublished data.

1. Do any of the four-strokes listed below have chain-drive cam(s) like the Suzuki DOHC DF40/50 or are they all belt-drive, like the Suzuki DF60/70 and BigFoot 50/60?

2. Does anyone know the maximum prop diameter for the motors below (besides the Suzuki DF50 at 12.25" and BigFoot at 14"?

Honda BF40/50
Tohatsu TLDI 40/50
Evinrude E-TEC 50/60
Suzuki DF40/50
Yamaha High Thrust 50/60
Mercury BigFoot 50/60
Tohatsu TLDI 70/90
Evinrude E-TEC 75/90
Suzuki DF60/70

As far as I know MSRP is not published publicly, and pricing varies dramatically by dealer, so that one may be too hard to do.

--
Moe

[mtc]

moe, thanks for working on the database for the engine information. It will benefit many people.

You know, I noticed that the MSRP for the outboards is very hard indeed to access.

There is something ineherently wrong with a sales system where the prices are 'secret'

Michael

[Catigale]

Max prop for Bigfoot 50 is 14 inch according to ENgine Manual

Mine is a 2003 model year motor.

confirmed it is belt driven cam

[Moe]

Is the Honda cam belt driven? I think I have the rest.

--
Moe

[Robert]

It has been a long time since I checked, but the BF50 has not changed much in a long time.
..
The problem with pricing: The dealers want to keep the price high and so they have this unwritten rule that prices are not to be given out or negotiated until they think they have your business, so in the store they will talk, on the phone they will not. I found this out shopping for a Honda BF50 in 1999. I was upset to find that I could at that time buy the same motor from http://www.esquirehonda.com and pay import taxes and pay for truck delivery to my door and still come out $2000 less than buying from the local dealer. I asked the local dealer about this, he did not offer to come down on price, instead he said no Honda dealer in the USA will service a Canadian Honda outboard. About that time Suzuki came out with their new DF50, I like technology, I researched the Geo Metro and little Suzuki cars where much of the DF50 design is taken from for reliabilty, and was very happy to pay $1000 less than the local Honda and get a great dealer too. This is also why it is important to buy from the dealer you are most likely to use for service, they give far better service to the people who purchased from them.
..
If I were close enough I'd use Esquire Honda just for their honesty.

[Richard O'Brien]

Moe, Are you saying that the Yamaha and merc 4-strokes are the same? I've heard that Yamaha made the larger v-blocks. I still don't know the truth on that one. I also read on some board that yamaha copied some merc components, improved on them, got sued, and Yes... currently manufactures them for Merc. The yamaha high-thrust 60 is listed at 116 kg., and the Merc bigfoot equivalent at 120 kg.? they also seem to have different ignitions, but they do , as you observed, have the same displacement? Who is making whose?

[Moe]

Merc and Yamaha have had agreements dating back several years. I know the current 996cc BigFoot 40-60 is built by Merc in the US, and I BELIEVE Yamaha also builds it, but at one time may have purchased the raw powerhead from Merc. Merc has had their SmartCraft compatible EFI on these since some time around 2001, while Yamaha has had nothing but carbs on these smaller four-strokes until this model year. One person who's been under the cowling of both tells me the Yamaha EFI components are different. I don't know. I do know production of the 60HP and smaller motors is moving to China any day now.

There was also a joint-venture Merc/Yamaha motor that was slightly smaller in displacement, and Yamaha used that until a year or so ago. I wonder if the early carbed BigFoots were this motor.

Merc buys carbed versions of the Yamaha 75 and 90, and EFI versions of the 115 and 225, from Yamaha, and the EFI isn't compatible with their SmartCraft gauges, so I'm guessing Yamaha also provides the EFI components.

That's all changing now. The 225 has been replaced by the supercharged 6 cylinder 200-275HP Verados built in the US, and the 135-175 HP supercharged 4 cylinder Verados have just been announced and are coming soon. About a year later, the 75-115 Verados will follow. Some say they're supercharged 3-cylinders, others naturally aspirated 4 cylinders.

Hope this helps,
--
Moe

[Greg]

Moe,

Would it be possible to add prop manufacturer, size, pitch and max rpm that folks are getting with their setup? I haven't seen your chart so this info may not fit in with what you are assembling. If not maybe it can be compiled somewhere else.

Thanks
Greg

[awolfe]

Moe:
Re. Tohatsu/Nissan props

All I know is what is on their website. It shows 12.1" as the largest for the 40/50 and 14" as the largest available on the 90 (which is what I have)

http://www.nissanmarine.com/tech_talk/prop_chart2.html



Tom
98x Annie's Song
Denver

[Frank C]

Just in case it's not been clear, Suzuki launched the 4-stroke EFI trend in their 60/70 midrange outboards in (I think) 1997. If you want to check me on that, see who won the "Mostest - Bestest" award in the outboard industry that year. The following year Suzuki won again, this time for that chain-driven DOHC 40/50 referred to above. (BTW, the DF 60/70 fits a 14" prop, no larger).

In those early EFI years, Suzuki sold their engines to Evinrude, which rebadged them and sold them unchanged. (Ergo, DD says to combine Evinrude w/ Suzuki). Curiously, my Suzuki dealer is 50 miles distant, but the Evinrude dealer adjacent to my marina refused to touch my Suzuki. Next ... Evinrude's parent (OMC) was bankrupted, largely due to overwhelming product returns and court judgements against their larger 2-stroke FICHT injection systems. The local Evinrude dealer folded along with the manufacturer. Anyway, for the years '98 to '01 they were identical motors.

Since Bombadier bought OMC's assets, they have resurrected the Johnson and Evinrude brands. They are again buying midrange motors from Suzuki. Now though, it's the Johnson badge, not Evinrude, which is marketing the midrange 4-strokes.

This degree of outboard cross-pollination makes it nearly futile to poll on the brand names only, and arrive at anything meaningful. The same confusion applies to the Mercury/Yamaha marriage.


I couldn't vote

[Tony D-26X_SusieQ]

Is the Honda cam belt driven? I think I have the rest.

--
Moe

The Honda has a timing belt.

[mtc]

[quote="Robert"]It has been a long time since I checked, but the BF50 has not changed much in a long time.
..
Is anyone aware of a dealer in NorthWest Florida who has been somewhat reasonable with the dealing? I don't mind at all paying a fair price, but if I can get something for less, why pay more? As for the servicing, I would rather pay a little more for a solid, reilable unit that didn't need any servicing. Oil changes, minor adjustments can be made by the owner.

I had absolutely no idea that the dealers had such a stranglehold on the customer in the outboard realm!! I feel like I'm trying to buy Crack and a victim! Why is this behavior tolerated? Why won't any dealer in the US service a Honda sold in Canada? Does the Triad run the engines in the US? Sorry, I'm just so freaked out.

Being a 'traditional' sailor, my experience has been with the blender-type low horsepower mixers on the transom for 'emergencies' or onboards like Yanmar, or Atomic. I am so ignorant, but learning.

Please bear with me as I struggle through what you guys have appaerently already experienced. I appreciate your patience. This is a huge amount of cash for one item - at least for me anyway. It's important that I can feel comforatble with my final purchase. From what I've read, you just don't take a $8,000 outbord back to Wal Mart for a return because you don't like it.

Michael

Michael.

[MAC26X]

Moe,
With reliable, efficient, quiet, but weak motors like the Honda 50, don't ask for the largest prop. What we Honda iron lungers should compare is what prop is producing the 6000 rpm that's needed to actually get the 50hp. Most prop charts won't work for the Mac. The 26X boat is way off the expected hull size for a 50hp and if you prop the Honda 50 by the chart you are lucky to see 5000 rpm- that's way below 50hp output. I've got 2 props (not near the boat to check them) and the most RPM I've seen is 5400. I think 6000 rpm will yield 50hp.

[Mark Prouty]

Fascinating article.

The 4-cycle outboard was pretty much forgotten for more than a decade until another small car automaker, Honda, adapted their 4-cycle car engine to marine use in the 1980's. Like the Bearcat, the Honda 4-cycle outboards were initially limited to mid-range horsepower, and, like Bearcat, they had the 4-cycle market to themselves for as long as they wanted it. That all changed in the 1990's when pro-environment legislators, having removed the last molecule of unburnt hydro-carbons from the exhaust of the American automobile, turned their regulatory zeal on the recreational marine industry. Outboard engines were not only polluting the air, it seems, they were also fouling America's water (and especially California's water!). California and the Federal Government passed legislation to ban the future sale of engines which did not conform to new, low pollution requirements and in some cases to outlaw the use of non-compliant engines on certain bodies of water. To meet the new and stringent regulations governing emissions, outboard engine makers returned to 4-cycle engines.

I have a Honda dealer just a few miles away. Every year I go in, the 4 strokes get bigger.

Ed Ewing, 80-year-old longtime owner of Economy 4 Cycle Marine of Redding, California, has quite an inventory of restored Bearcats. For years Ed ran an outboard dealership and repair shop, but now he limits his business to 4-stroke outboards, and he specializes in renovating old Bearcat-55 engines. For about $1,800 he will sell you a completely rebuilt and refurbished Bearcat with an improved electronic ignition system and back it with a one-year powerhead warranty. He has had as many as 300 in stock at various times.

This motor would be perfect on a restored boat.
(Family used to have a really cool 1961 Dorset Eldorado)