hydraulic systems

[andyman2000]

i wanted to get feed back from others here who have installed this system. do you regret it? do you miss your feed back in steering? do you regret it?

[Azzarac]

Love mine! Would never go back to the stock system.

Fair Winds,
Capt. Azzarac
Chameleon
Follow Chameleon's travels at: http://svchameleon.weebly.com/

[andyman2000]

Thats great but can you give me more data on your experience with it.. When sailing how does it feel or lack of feel? How does it compare to the stock system (assuming we are ignoring reliability). I want to know the differences in useability, both with motor or with sails. I bought the baystar system and prepping for an install but I am having second thoughts because of the thought of loosing feedback.

[Hamin' X]

I do not have a hydraulic system, but my understanding is that there is little, to no feedback. If you are coming from a sailing background and, or are used to tiller steering, I think that you will not like the hydraulic. If however, you come from powerboating, you will probably love it. YMMV

~Rich

[andyman2000]

thanks Hamin, I understand the pro and cons to the system. I just want to hear it from someone who actually has it. There is a serious lack of review from macgregor owners with this system. More specifically I'd like to hear from those who have it what they think, their review of it while sailing, etc.. Just need more details from this with it and have used it on a macgregor.

Come on guys I know your out there! Hoping to get some feed back before I put this in my boat. I have to admit one reason I went for the hydraulic is for the autopilot. But I'm not sure now if it was worth the sacrifice to sailing.

[mastreb]

Search this forum for "Baystar". Member Crikey installed it inboard (rather than in the splashwell) and reports that he's very happy with it.

I've decided that when my cable drive goes out, I will be installing a slightly more complicated Seastar system with separate cylinders for the rudders and the outboard, removing the MacGregor linkage between them to eliminate the port/starboard turn angle disparity that that linkage causes. I'll also be moving to a hydraulic actuator for my autopilot at that time, and putting in a valve that will allow me to line-out the outboard to reduce steering effort and re-align on the fly.

The Seastar system will also be upgradable to dual-station, should I ever figure out where I'd put an interior helm.

[Azzarac]

Sorry Andy, wasn't sure exactly what you were looking for. I have Telefex's Seastar hydraulic system installed on Chameleon linking the rudders and motor together. As I said, I love the system. It does remove a lot of steering effort that was felt before with the original system but seems to still have a decent "feel" for whats occurring while sailing. Now with that in mind, I do come from a powerboating background and Chameleon is our first sailboat but I do find the hydraulics much more comfortable.

[DaveB]

Only person I know was a person from overseas that had a Hydrolic system on a MacX type boat built in there. Begins with Oth...something.

Anyways the person had the 26 ft. shipped over to US/ canada and commissioned it here. It had a fully hydrolic steering system and at the time I boarder her was told the system cost $3200 .
The boat had no side decks and very hard to move forward upper deck. Had a great below cabin.
Boat was in Punta Gorda, FL. 2 yrs ago.
Maybe the same person can add to this forum their insite for this ?
Might add, I was very interested in the Proto type the other side of the world was developing.
Think Rodgers, knockoff is doing just great in FL. , Bet they turn out a boat with quality and at a fair price.
Dave

thanks Hamin, I understand the pro and cons to the system. I just want to hear it from someone who actually has it. There is a serious lack of review from macgregor owners with this system. More specifically I'd like to hear from those who have it what they think, their review of it while sailing, etc.. Just need more details from this with it and have used it on a macgregor.

Come on guys I know your out there! Hoping to get some feed back before I put this in my boat. I have to admit one reason I went for the hydraulic is for the autopilot. But I'm not sure now if it was worth the sacrifice to sailing.

[mastreb]

Azzarac can you provide some detail as to the exact layout of your system? Do you have separate cylinders controlling your outboard and your rudders with no mechanical linkage between the two? Which cylinders and helm motors did you use (part #s please!). How much did it cost?

[Tomfoolery]

do you miss your feed back in steering?

I don't know how much feedback from the OEM push-pull cable system there is to lose. It's not like a good open cable system, which gives more feedback, but still nothing close to that of a tiller.

[andyman2000]

Was just looking at the teleflex ss141 as everyone seems to be talking about them. I see it advertised as no feedback. Isn't that essentially the same as hydraulic but at a lower price? Wouldn't I loose my feeling in the rudders with the 141's?

[Azzarac]

Sorry for the delayed response Andy. I spent all weekend trying to find the papers on my system but to no avail. I pulled them out of my files last spring because someone else was asking about it and must have put them "some place safe!" Anyway, I can't get a look at the pump unit right now but I got the P/N off the cylinder today. It's HC5830 and there is only one with both motor and rudders hooked up. We just raise the motor out of the water if we are sailing. I don't really notice the additional weight at the helm. Here is a photo of the setup.



Hope this helps,
Azz

[andyman2000]

Alright thanks to all for your help, support, and examples. I finally have my baystar installed. Let me post a shopping list of stuff to make the next persons life a little easier.

0. eye protection, head mounted flash light, qty 2 7/16 open end wrench, qty 2 9/16 open end wrench , 5/8 , 2 cresent wrenches just in case, copper anti seize compound, and a 7/16 socket wrench (not deep socket) with a universal joint if you have one. Impact driver with a #2 phillers driver extended bit , some go joo, lots of rags, and definitly some gloves . You will need to bring a friend to help bleed the system.

1. 18 piece hole saw kit from harbor freight. Use the combination of 2 hole saws that comes with this kit to cut the 3" hole. The inner hole saw will align to the existing hole and the 3" will cut the needed size for the baystar. Makes a perfect cut this way.

2. 3" hole saw from home depot in case the harbor freight hole saw fails and starts to burn the wood instead of cutting it.

3. 5/16" drill bit. drill the initial hole with a smaller drill bit as a guide for the bigger one (for the bay star steering unit)
3/8" drill bit for the 3 holes to mount the hydraulic actuator

4. from midwest controls
STM-6 Spherical Rod End, Male, Stainless, Teflon Race 3/8 qty 1
STML-6 Spherical Rod End, Male, Stainless, Teflon Race 3/8 qty 1
AHT6-12.00 urnbuckle, Hex Bar, Aluminum, 3/8-24 12" qty 1
3/8 x 24 RH jam nut stainless from bolts depot
3/8 x 24 Left HAND jam nut stainless
3/8 x 24 Scotty Bolts qty 2

5. from bolts depot
3/8 x 24 2.25" bolts stainless qty 3
3/8 x 24 2.5" bolts stainless qty 3 incase the above is too small

6. extra thick fender washer 3/8 x 1 1/2" stainless. I'm not sure how many you need but you need a bunch of these. inside the boat near the stern around where the transom area you will need to mount the bay star right in the center (its very close to where the bolt used to hold the cable steering is located). There is basically a piece of decrative fiber glass covering the outer fiber glass in the outboard motor bay. You could cut this entire fiberglass out OR you can drill a 1.5" hole and stack bunch of fender washers such that with enough washers you clear the fiberglass and your boat stays nice and pretty. I have a lath so I just fabbed up some really large spacers.

7. dremel with cut off wheel .. trust me when you need this you'll know what to do with it. Basically I use it to cut the bolts to size because they will get in the way of the bleeders.

8. 3M marine adhesive 3200

The only real issue you guys will have is, how the heck are you going to mount the Spherical Rod End to the bay star.. The bay star is metric and uses a 11 x 1.25 thread (I actually forgot but its a weird size.. maybe someone else can confirm.) I think its 11 x 1.25 or 11 x 0.75 but its a fine pitch for this large bolt. One thing you can do is use an aluminum or steel L bracket. I had some Unirac L brackets at home so I used that. If you look on ebay you will find them cheap, like $30. Unirac solar serrated L foot. You will have to cut open the hole on the inside to 11.5mm and 3/8 on the other side. You will also have to cut some of the material to so you don't hit the bleeder on the bay star. This bracket and control rode is installed on the starboard side of the boat. I didn't use any control linkages on the port side.

Overall the system took only 5 hrs to install , 1.5 hrs of machining time at home for the bracket and spacers. I'm very pleased with the system. Removing the existing steering wheel was easy enough with a 3 jaw gear puller. Make sure to use copper anti seize compound on all nuts and the woodruff key inside the steering wheel. I also used the same compound on the mating surface of the steering wheel also. the 3M sealant should be used on the bolt and fender washer entering the hole you drilled in the transom area to prevent water entry.

[mastreb]

Photos?

[andyman2000]

Just an update.

Installed the Raymarine EV100 autopilot. Seatrials will happen as soon as weather permits.
The installation for the rudder feedback was pretty easy. The whole install took 2 days. The ev-100 can run in openloop mode where it just estimates time it takes to move the rudder to steer the boat but I really recommend everyone use a closed system and install the rudder sensor. Just an FYI, the ev-100 is seatalk which is nmea 2000 compatible but its really not fully compatible. I hooked this up to my lowrance and only gps and depth was read on the network. Upgrading to raymarine A68 so I can set waypoints. EV100 can also talk to a wind vane sensor and steer the boat appropriately.