Sails, balance, lee helm 26S advice

[Insureddisaster]

Today I took my Mac 26S out at LBL near Dover, TN. We actually had anchored out last night and most of the morning in a small sheltered anchorage so the conditions out on the actual lake surprised us. I sailed right off the anchor with Jib and reefed main sail. The wind was probably a bit over 15mph, maybe a bit more and the waves had white caps and all.

Well, the boat had really bad lee helm and wanted to turn away from the wind. At one point we had the tiller all the way over and the boat was still not turning. I figured that our rig was unbalanced with too much sail up front. If I pulled the main in the boat heeled over quite a bit so I had to keep the main out despite the fact we were trying to sail up wind. I had the jib eased out a lot though.

Due to the rough conditions (for us that is) and the fact that my wife was becoming seasick, I dropped all sails, fired up the motor and called it a day.

My mast is very vertical but not leaning forward. Maybe a need to rake it a bit more? Before it had bad weather helm so maybe I overdid it. Is the jib too big for a reefed main?

Also thinking maybe the rudder was swept back a few degrees. My cleat needs to be moved forward a bit due to the knot connecting the rope to the rudder wire being at the wrong place.

I don't think conditions on our lake approach that of the ocean so I would think that the factory jib should be able to be raised with a reefed main without much trouble, but I'm not very experienced.

Any suggestions?

[mastreb]

Letting out your jib a lot or even lowering it should have solved the problem even if your mast rake was completely off. Seems like your jib was too sheeted in for main balance and you were sheeting out the main to control heel rather than sheeting out the jib.

I'm assuming you were working with a 110% hank-on? The reefed main likely was not producing proportionate power to the headsail causing the CE to be too far forward. Another less comfortable solution would have been to let the reef out and heel the boat over farther, so that the main and headsail were balanced.

It's much easier to balance CE with a roller furler, because you can easily furl to precisely balance the helm with the main reefed to any point. The effect is so pronounced that in steady, very light beam winds, I've been able to pull up rudders and steer simply by changing headsail reefing. It's a trick I use for reducing drag in very light winds. Doesn't work if ballast is moving about the cockpit and cabin though.

[Insureddisaster]

Thank you.

I guess it was most likely the ratio of Jib to Main sail (full vs reefed) and possibly the rudder might have been swept back a bit as that appears to make a difference. Its too bad I didn't try to sail the boat with just the reefed main up to see how that works but possibly another time in the future. As for trying to balance the jib against a reefed main I could possibly go for a storm jib of a certain size or really go big and get a roller furler. I'll definitely work to fix the rudder cleat situation to make sure that that is squared away.

I'll save my pennies as the hank on jib is such a pain to have to run up to deal with that and I'd really like to be able to single hand the boat in the future.

I think I'm going to go with the 100% jib instead of a Genoa as I believe it is easier to tack and also points into the wind a bit more.

[ronacarme]

From your last post I understand that your headsail was a genoa and not the smaller stock working jib. Given that, I would assume your lee helm was due to a CE too far forward as a result of a big headsail and a reefed main. Dousing the genoa and running a full....not reefed ....main would have moved the CE aft and likely eliminated the lee helm.
On the other hand, if running no headsail and a reefed main in the future gives too much weather helm. try moving the underbody CLR aft a bit by raising the dagger board a bit (if your 26S is a 26D like my old 1988) or pulling the centerboard up and aft a bit (if your 26S is a 26C and thus similar in that respect to my present 26X).
Adjusting the board up and down on these boats is easily done while sailing (you may have to momentarily head up or down wind to take side pressure of the board to allow adjusting) and so is the quick and easy way to diagnose and at least initially cure weather/lee helm problems. You can aways later, in port, fiddle with mast rake, etc. to try to balance the helm with different board setting.
I recall my old 26 D as being much less sensitive to board position than my present 26 X, perhaps due to the larger chord or the D's board.
My 26 X helm balances on a close reach with 1. full main and working jib or a 200 sq ft drifter and the centerboard about 90% down, and 2.full or reefed main and no headsail and the centerboard line out 3/8 to 1/2 the way. Assume a heel angle less than about 20 degrees.
Ron

[mastreb]

Ron you are correct, the D (and M) are less sensitive to board position regarding CLR than the X or the C because as the centerboard pitvots down, the exposed surface of the board actually moves from aft to forward as the board lowers. This directly changes the CLR. With the daggers, moving up and down has very little effect on CLR.

[Catigale]

A small amount if rudder tilt will lower the lift as well as stress the fittings ...fix that first. On an if you don't cleat the rudders down HARD you can break the steering gear.

A full 150 genoa (not clear what head sail you were using) against a reefed main is also contributing to lee helm.

You can make hank owns single hand able from cockpit with a halyard and haul down arrangement. I'm completing this mod this spring on Catigale as I move to cutter rig....woo hoo!!!

[Steve K]

I've noticed a lot of newer sailors (myself included when I was new at it) don't hoist the sails properly.
The luff needs to be tight, particularly when in higher wind conditions. When sailing, there should be no wrinkling in the forward part of the sail (wrinkles running perpendicular to the luff) or a scalloped luff. The sail can't be flattened when the luff is too loose and the draft in the sail will be too far back. So, instead of a flattish efficient wing shape that wind flows over and creates lift, you get more of a parachute shape that just catches the wind and pulls you over. (which translates to lee helm, rounding down etc.)
Maximum draft for the main is generally about 50% back from the luff and about 40% for the head sail. You should find that once the sail is hoisted nice and tight, the boat will tend to heel less and you should be able to sheet in a little tighter too. A good rule of thumb for sheeting is to ease the sheet until you get a bubble (slight backwinding) along the luff of the sail, then sheet in just enough to remove said bubble. The sheeting of the head sail will effect the sheeting of the main. You will see the bubble along the luff of the main return after sheeting the headsail, then just re-adjust the mainsheet a little more. Now you should be balanced pretty well.
I'm all for telltales on the leech of the main. When they are all flying (usually four of them along the leech) you have it right. All the main adjustments have an effect here (halyard, vang, mainsheet, outhaul and Cunningham if equipped). Play with these adjustments.

I prefer hank on head sails
Probably makes me a minority here, but furlers on trailer boats are a lot of trouble and very expensive. They also limit head sail changes and I really like a Drifter for light breezes.
I also don't care for the fact that when you furl the sail, you may be reducing sail area, but that sail area left is much higher up the forestay. Just me I guess, but I've had both and just like the simplicity of hoisting a sail on the forestay and have choices of sail with which to do so. (and at 61yrs. old I can still stand up/drop the mast by hand, if I have to).
As Catigale says, a downhaul arrangement can be made up, so the headsail can be doused from the cockpit in bad conditions. (I keep meaning to do that)

Is your centerboard dropping all the way make sure.

So, the money you were going to spend on furling.....................? take just a portion of that and get yourself a Rudder Craft rudder. This is the single best improvement anyone can make to a MacGregor classic imho. The Popsicle stick is not up to the task. There are several articles on the web about how to make your own or modify your original one. This will make the boat tame in wind and more responsive. The tiller still has feedback, but it's like having power steering. My boat just does not round up..... or down for that matter.
Also for now, make sure the rudder is all the way down. It stresses you, the tiller and the rest of the hardware involved if it is up/back just slightly.

The only other things I can think of might be try moving the mast rake halfway back, but I don't find rake to make such a difference as you talk about. This is more fine adjustment, for when you start racing the boat and want every fraction of a knot you can get.

The classics (the D boat anyway) really don't have a problem with balance on one sail. They sail just about as well on main only or head sail only. I prefer to sail main only 'cause I've heard all these stories about sailing fractional rig with only a head sail is dangerous to the rig. I know she'll really rock along nicely on just a Genoa, but don't let the wind get too heavy. Anyway, the point being, you can tack with just a main or just a jib, so?................... (on mine anyway)

The only time my boat ever acted anything like you are describing, was once when I forgot to put the daggerboard down honestly. Stupid me I'm sailing along wondering why the darned boat wouldn't point. I just keep getting the feeling that something is up with your centerboard.

Hope this was helpful

Best Breezes,
Steve K
Mac 26D

[Insureddisaster]

Thanks guys.

I'm probably going to take the boat out this weekend. Winds should be 15-20 mph on the lake again. I'm only going to use the main this time to get a better feel, as well as relocate the rudder hold down cleat on the tiller a few inches. Will let you know how it goes.

[Loala]

Yes its been my experience that using more of the main will help.

But,...

X1 on Steves advice on the Rudder Craft rudder! Just drop the money on one and don't look back. It will open up a whole new world for you! LOL!

It did for me!

[Insureddisaster]

Well I'm pleased (and slightly embarrassed) to report that I went sailing this weekend in similar conditions, and things worked out much better. This time instead of wife and kid, I brought along a work buddy who was more tolerant of extreme heeling. The rudder cleat was moved forward a bit which helped as well.

So, what I think was going on in the past was that as the boat heeled over, I eased out the main sheet which shifted the balance to the jib and created a lee helm. This time, thanks to your help, I pulled in the main a bit allowing the boat to heel over as much as needed and keeping the rig balanced. At one point I even held the tiller in one position and steered with the main sheet alone. We tried letting out the jib to depower the rig a bit but found that beyond a certain point it just flapped a lot, especially as we were sailing close to the wind. Then the gusts would pick up and I think at one point we had the lee chain plate in the water. It was sick. Eventually it got so windy that we dropped all sail, had lunch then motored back.

One question now:

When sailing downwind, I found that the boat wanted to round up into the wind badly. The tiller had some real bend in it, that's how much force was being applied. I'd say the wind was coming from the left rear quarter at the time, both sails were on one side. Tried easing the main out, seemed to make the problem worse. What was I doing wrong?

FYI, winds were 20mph+ reefed main, OEM hank on jib. (100% I think, does not come past the mast.)

Thanks for all your help.

[JohnWood]

I'd bet anything that your centerboard wasn't dropping all the way.
Lee helm is not good, and just plain unnatural, a sure sign that something is wrong. Any sailboat sailing upwind in heavy wind, that is heeled over should have windward helm, not leeward. The only time you might expect to have leeward helm might be on a full keel boat in very light wind.
While going upwind, in heavy wind, you keep your jib tight and the telltales flowing back. You reef and trim the mainsheet to keep desired heel and level of windward helm. More power mean more heel and windward helm, but there's a point where too much heel & helm becomes slower. Obviously, all crew to windward, even hiking a bit if you're up for it. You should be able to dump the main, even completely to keep the boat flat and maintain some windward helm. Always dump the main right as you bear down.

To check the board, if you can, drop the board while in the water and dive down to see how far it goes down.
Even so, if you lowered it while under way, lateral resistance could have prevented it from going down. It's best to lower while boat is flat and sails luffing as in the middle of a slow tack.
Check the board and slot for growth.
Other centerboard-related causes could be:
* Growth on the board that alters its foil shape
* A crack or other weakness that may be hard to see while still, but can allow the board to bend while under later force

Other tips:
Make sure your rudder can go all the way down, and then stay there.
Upwind: Board all the way down, or raise it slightly if windward helm is too strong
Reach and down wind: Raise the board a bit, perhaps half way. Don't raise it all the way, unless you're racing and want to get that surface are out of the water at the expense of the boat getting really squirrelly.

[Catigale]

One other thing to consider. Im not sure if this applies to the 26S but the comes with a very low end run sail material that often is blown out in its first season. I did my maiden voyage in 25 knots of wind on Lake Champlain and blew my mainsail out the first week of sailing. Once you do this...you really can't fix it - you will always have a big puffy parachute and the boat will be difficult to sail in all but light air...where it will actually perform pretty well. The fix is to get on the horn with the fine vendors who support our Board and pop for a new mainsail, of course.

[Insureddisaster]

Yes, my main is quite baggy though I've pulled on the outhaul and halyard as much as possible bu it is still baggy. I am not sure how to winch up the halyard but I step on the main halyard to make it as tight as possible. I'll have to look into replacing it but it might be a while. Too many other projects and expenses!

Thanks.