Looking to join the Mac-club! Advice on 26x Sail Improvement

[Signaleer]

Howdy all.

I'm Ed. Currently a Pearson 26 owner in the SF Bay looking to move south to the Gulf Coast (Gulf Shores, Alabama) area.

I've always admired the versatility of the Mac. I can't tow the Pearson (reasonably) to Alabama and am looking at Mac's.

There are a few for sale in the area - X's and M's. I'm read all I can read (I think about the differences) and what I would like to better understand is the X sailing performance. I saw the video about the turbulance created by the center board and less sail area and flatter hull shape. I'm really concerned about sailing performance because this is what I do the most of (at least hear in the SF Bay).

I suppose if I found a boat with the rotating mast, more sail area... would the performance be similar?

(Which brings me to another question re: sailing... I have watched hours of Mac's sailing on Youtube and I always feel like I am observing a ton of headsail sag and constantly loose luff's on mainsails in heavy wind?) Am I nuts or is this just characteristic of the boat? When I sail to weather I want that rig flat tight and straight.

I have seen some good deals on X's, but I wonder if I would be happy.

Can anyone help me better understand?

Ed.

[dlandersson]

Ed,

Best thing would be to find an X owner and go sailing with them.

An X is likely not going to sail as well as a Pearson. It's hull has a 5% "V" - designed to quickly get up on a plane - which has a negative impact on its pure sailing capability.

An M has a 15% "V" - sails better - but still a hull design compromise.

Howdy all.

I'm Ed. Currently a Pearson 26 owner in the SF Bay looking to move south to the Gulf Coast (Gulf Shores, Alabama) area.

I've always admired the versatility of the Mac. I can't tow the Pearson (reasonably) to Alabama and am looking at Mac's.

There are a few for sale in the area - X's and M's. I'm read all I can read (I think about the differences) and what I would like to better understand is the X sailing performance. I saw the video about the turbulance created by the center board and less sail area and flatter hull shape. I'm really concerned about sailing performance because this is what I do the most of (at least hear in the SF Bay).

I suppose if I found a boat with the rotating mast, more sail area... would the performance be similar?

(Which brings me to another question re: sailing... I have watched hours of Mac's sailing on Youtube and I always feel like I am observing a ton of headsail sag and constantly loose luff's on mainsails in heavy wind?) Am I nuts or is this just characteristic of the boat? When I sail to weather I want that rig flat tight and straight.

I have seen some good deals on X's, but I wonder if I would be happy.

Can anyone help me better understand?

Ed.

[captronr]

Hi Ed,

I'm an X owner and love it for what it does well-- so so sailing and better at motoring. We are just returning from a short vacation to Biloxi, where I went motoring with a buddy in his 27 ft keelboat (forget the model). Winds were 20+ as we moved his boat from dry dock to his slip. First time I've been on the gulf in a sailboat.

Based on that one short experience, I would not want my X on that water. What is a normal wind/wave day there is one I'd not go out on in my X. Yeah, the boat could take it, but it would be work, and I'm not into that.

Buddy says his sailboat is too small for the waters and he's sailed tons of different boats (he used to be a delivery skipper).

An M will point higher than an X, but my X will point nowhere near high enough to keep up with the keel boats in our club.

Macs are lightweight, which makes for fast, easy towing and rigging. Comfortable for overnite use. Decent to sail. Decent to power. But it's all a compromise.

Ron

[Starscream]

Buying an X or an M is not about sailing speed or open water sailing. If you want those things, don't buy a Mac.

These boats fill a certain niche: trailerable motorboats that can sail. And they are very comfortable for overnighting if you trick them out a bit.

However, even if everyone agrees that these are poor sailing boats, that's not to say that you won't have MORE FUN sailing in these boats than in any other: I think it's harder and more technical to sail these boats fast than it is to sail other boats and therein lies the fun. 6 knots SOG on a reach with an in a 15 knot breeze is a true win. Pointing at 50 degrees to the wind is also a win, at least for me. Actually, if we are being truly honest, I consider 60 degrees to the wind to be good; partly me as a lousy sailor and partly the boat as a lousy sailer.

If you enjoy the challenge of trying to get the most out of a boat with certain limitations, then the Macs are excellent platforms. If the concept that 6 knots of boatspeed is a total success while sailing sounds awful to you, then don't do it. But if you will enjoy the challenge of seeing if you can get it up to 6.5 knots and can be satisfied with that personal success, then go ahead!

It seems generally agreed that the Macs can't take the same wind and waves as other boats and one needs to be prudent about where one sails.

On the other hand, I can drop the motor run for shelter at 24 mph...try that in a Pearson!

[Obelix]

After sailing our for 3+ years on SFB, we moved it to the Florida's west coast in 2012 and love sailing it here. There were days we wouldn't go out on SFB and there are days we don't go out into the Gulf.
It is totally like Starscream say's, it depends really on your personal definition of fun. We like to sail to the barrier islands, anchor together with likeminded sailors to socialize and shoot the bull
That's what either the or the seemed to be designed for. If your emphasis is more on competitive sailing, with trailering capability, then maybe look into a classic Macgregor 26D the fastest of the pure sailing Macs.

Obelix

[Signaleer]

Hey guys thanks for all the replies!

First I do think I know what the MacGregor is and I certainly know that it's not a racing sailboat. I also know that the Pearson that I'm on could never go to the shallows nor motor at 20 miles an hour or had the community that I think you all dogs all are it could do a trip on the intercoastal certainly but probably not as easy or as quickly as the Mac.

So all in all I think I'm excited about the compromises. what I've read about sailing characteristics of the M especially with the cutter on the cheap modification it seems like I could get a lot of fun using it in that manner. Also I've read about the 26 X that did the inside passage the whole way up to Alaska and back. I know it's not a boat that I'm going to do the transpac in but could I make my way around the intercoastal (again requiring possibly a more beefy motor) I think so.

So all in all I think I understand what I'm getting and I'm excited about it. My one question is about the sailing difference between the MacX in the MacM. And are there mods that can essentially make the two sailing equivalent? Frankly from what I've seen and I've only been on the M model I think the X layout downstairs is a bit superior but then again I don't want to start a fight

Again thanks for all the feedback see you all soon.

[dlandersson]

Good point, a friend I sail with can get my X to 30 degrees - he's a really good sailor.

Pointing at 50 degrees to the wind is also a win, at least for me. Actually, if we are being truly honest, I consider 60 degrees to the wind to be good; partly me as a lousy sailor and partly the boat as a lousy sailer.

[mastreb]

I personally don't find the M to be a slouch in the sailing department, once I really learned how to sail it.

It's not a slow boat, it's just a difficult boat to sail well, especially for keel boat sailors.

Here's what you need to know about sailing a Mac to consistently get to its hull speed:

1) It will do about 50% of true wind, so that means you'll make the hull speed of 6.5 knots in about 14 knots of wind. Less than that means less speed than that. A good keel boat will do 70%, so it's less efficient in that sense. HOWEVER--In light air below 5 knots, its more than twice as fast as a keel boat and I often sailed right past much larger boats in light air.

2) The nervous helm kills speed dead. The helm moves the moment you take your eyes off your course marker, and rudder deflection stalls the boat much faster than a keelboat would because there's not a lot of weight to the boat. This makes single handing performance nigh unto impossible without an auto-helm. I strongly recommend just putting an autopilot on day one and driving it routinely with it when you want performance, because it will keep those rudders straighter than you possibly can.

3) Keep the mainsheet in hand. You want to keep the boat at a very consistent 15 degree heel, both more and less reduces speed. The simplest way do this is to keep the mainsheet in hand and keep constant tension on the sheet, which will automatically haul it in and sheet it out as the wind changes.

4) The boat points across 110 degrees, like a good keel boat, but does not pinch well. Below about 40 degrees to true wind, the boat will close haul on its own. Avoid irons at all costs.

5) Because it's light, it won't make it through a tack on momentum. You must backwind the jib to get the boat across the wind, and then tack the jib once you've arrived on your new heading. With practice this can be done quickly, but you do lose a bit more momentum because you can't tack while turning.

On the plus side, you can pull up the windward rudder and the prop to reduce drag, and you can reduce the daggerboard depth from 100% to 0% as you come around from 55 degrees to 180, proportionally. This reduces drag considerably, and is worth up to a knot in additional speed.

Sailing a Mac is more like sailing a dinghy than a keelboat, and once you learn how to do it, you can get it moving very consistently. It takes more time and effort to learn the boat, and it take more sailing work than a keel boat, but it's also more rewarding in my opinion.

Matt

[Signaleer]

Great insights Matt. Thank you. So... that year I was racing lasers may pay off after all?



Ed

[Russ]

He said sailing a dingy, not a laser. Be prepared for sailing challenges.

However he's right, it is NOT a keelboat. Water ballast makes it very tender for the first 10 degrees of heel. It's lightweight so when you sit on one side the boat, it will react (like a dinghy). High freeboard means winds will push this lightweight boat around. My first time floating ours was bare poles. Wind caught us broadside and shocked us into a healing position. Coming from a 35' keel boat, this was new to me. Shook up the admiral. We have learned its 12000 pounds lighter than the old boat and how to adjust. I still have to respect the weather more. It's only 26' long and not suited for bad stuff. No boat that small is.

So once you get past that. There is no other 26 foot boat with as much space below. Like the tardis, it's bigger on the inside. At 5'9" I can stand up. With a dodger, I can have enough headroom to not be clostrophobic. Our boat will do 18mph on a good day. It's loaded heavy and at 5000' altitude the motor starves for O2. We almost never run at WOT. Just too friggin noisy for my quiet sole. But it's really nice to know it's always there. Towing stuff is easier.
Last year the teen son took to the Seadoo and met up with us on the hook. We could tow the Seadoo back no problem if we wanted to. Makes for a fast (70mph) tender also.

As long as you understand the Mac power sailer is a hybrid you will enjoy it. Oh, and that the blue ones are slightly faster.

--Russ

[Starscream]

Good point, a friend I sail with can get my X to 30 degrees - he's a really good sailor.

Hmm, a few hundred years ago we would have burned your buddy at the stake for a trick like that.

[Highlander]

Hey guys thanks for all the replies!

First I do think I know what the MacGregor is and I certainly know that it's not a racing sailboat. I also know that the Pearson that I'm on could never go to the shallows nor motor at 20 miles an hour or had the community that I think you all dogs all are it could do a trip on the intercoastal certainly but probably not as easy or as quickly as the Mac.

So all in all I think I'm excited about the compromises. what I've read about sailing characteristics of the M especially with the cutter on the cheap modification it seems like I could get a lot of fun using it in that manner. Also I've read about the 26 X that did the inside passage the whole way up to Alaska and back. I know it's not a boat that I'm going to do the transpac in but could I make my way around the intercoastal (again requiring possibly a more beefy motor) I think so.



So all in all I think I understand what I'm getting and I'm excited about it. My one question is about the sailing difference between the MacX in the MacM. And are there mods that can essentially make the two sailing equivalent? Frankly from what I've seen and I've only been on the M model I think the X layout downstairs is a bit superior but then again I don't want to start a fight

Again thanks for all the feedback see you all soon.

Well why stop @ a cutter rig may as well go the whole hog makeher a Clipper
http://i844.photobucket.com/albums/ab1/ ... 56a38b.jpg

Just saying that,s all

J

[Azzarac]

So all in all I think I understand what I'm getting and I'm excited about it. My one question is about the sailing difference between the MacX in the MacM. And are there mods that can essentially make the two sailing equivalent? Frankly from what I've seen and I've only been on the M model I think the X layout downstairs is a bit superior but then again I don't want to start a fight

When we were searching for our boat I sailed both the and . The M was a brand spanking new, completely unmodified, factory job that we took out for several hours around the Miami harbor. The X we eventually bought was modified by the PO who happened to be a professional sailboat outfitter in San Diego. The sailing performance between the two was too minimal to be appreciated. I think the M will sail about .5knts faster than the X and the X will motor a tad faster than the M due to hull characteristics. The cabin was ultimately the deciding factor on our purchasing the X. IMO the X is laid out better and having a head you can stand in was more appealing to the Admiral and crew. I think one of the biggest things that can be done to either model in terms of getting better performance out of these boats is to properly tune the rig. Mast rake and shroud tension have tremendous effect on how they sail.

[Catigale]

I personally don't find the M to be a slouch in the sailing department, once I really learned how to sail it.

It's not a slow boat, it's just a difficult boat to sail well, especially for keel boat sailors.

Here's what you need to know about sailing a Mac to consistently get to its hull speed:

1) It will do about 50% of true wind, so that means you'll make the hull speed of 6.5 knots in about 14 knots of wind. Less than that means less speed than that. A good keel boat will do 70%, so it's less efficient in that sense. HOWEVER--In light air below 5 knots, its more than twice as fast as a keel boat and I often sailed right past much larger boats in light air.

2) The nervous helm kills speed dead. The helm moves the moment you take your eyes off your course marker, and rudder deflection stalls the boat much faster than a keelboat would because there's not a lot of weight to the boat. This makes single handing performance nigh unto impossible without an auto-helm. I strongly recommend just putting an autopilot on day one and driving it routinely with it when you want performance, because it will keep those rudders straighter than you possibly can.

3) Keep the mainsheet in hand. You want to keep the boat at a very consistent 15 degree heel, both more and less reduces speed. The simplest way do this is to keep the mainsheet in hand and keep constant tension on the sheet, which will automatically haul it in and sheet it out as the wind changes.

4) The boat points across 110 degrees, like a good keel boat, but does not pinch well. Below about 40 degrees to true wind, the boat will close haul on its own. Avoid irons at all costs.

5) Because it's light, it won't make it through a tack on momentum. You must backwind the jib to get the boat across the wind, and then tack the jib once you've arrived on your new heading. With practice this can be done quickly, but you do lose a bit more momentum because you can't tack while turning.

On the plus side, you can pull up the windward rudder and the prop to reduce drag, and you can reduce the daggerboard depth from 100% to 0% as you come around from 55 degrees to 180, proportionally. This reduces drag considerably, and is worth up to a knot in additional speed.

Sailing a Mac is more like sailing a dinghy than a keelboat, and once you learn how to do it, you can get it moving very consistently. It takes more time and effort to learn the boat, and it take more sailing work than a keel boat, but it's also more rewarding in my opinion.

Matt

Ed - I think you have your hands around the beast on this one. Ive been out with Matt in light air, and we had a riot just keeping pace with some dock Queen in a fancy keelboat thinking he should be killing us...the secret was the autopilot was a much better helm than either of us in light air. Dock Queen Nancy was even more annoyed when he saw how much ballast was on board....(Im 6 foot 1 inch, 220# and Matt isn't.)

I think you said you were headed to Biloxi - Colonel Jim King retired from USAF down that way and might be a good friendly face to look up.

[Signaleer]

Well, thank you again for all the replies.

However, I am an ex-Captain of the Signal Corps, US Army and would never step foot on the vessel of a USAF officer and respect myself in the morning.... so...



Ed.